John McCallum's Survey of Old Timers-What were they thinking?????

[McGoorty]

Of the pre WWI fighters, I would only include Johnson, and possibly Jeffries were I to remove Sonny Liston. Not to say they aren't great, or that the Klitschkos and Lennox Lewis are superior, but compared to the ebst of the other greats, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Sullivan, and most of the time Jeffries just don't match up. Jack Johnson absolutely. I think that pure bias made up the old timers' list. I mean, Sullivan and Fitz above Ali? Or Louis? Or Dempsey? Fitz, John, and Corbett were good fighters, but I just think it's wrong to place them above first tier heavyweights like Dempsey, Louis, Ali.

SONNY LISTON ??????- Instead of a John L. SULLIVAN, a James J. JEFFRIES, or a FITZSIMMONS ???, I don't care if Liston is so big and mean, can you possibly imagine Jim Jeffries or "Ruby Bob" or JOHN "HELL" SULLIVAN doing what Liston did during the "Phantom Punch episode. THAT excludes HIM from being great. !!!!Sullivan QUIT, gotta be kiddin' me,.................... OLD TIMERS 1 -- Modern FIGHTERS-- Nil.........

[McGoorty]

Not RIGHT-- Not The WHOLE TRUTH

I see a continuity in the sport from WWI on for several reasons. Boxing was legal in all/almost all states (professional, record judging of bouts) and there is reasonably good film.

I would, without hesitation, include Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey as among the greatest of heavyweight fighters. My problem in including John Sullivan was that he was brought up in the bare-knuckle era. London Prize Rules included throwing opponents and other fighting skills that are closer to MMA than today's "front-of-the-glove" rules.

The same is true with Bob Fitzsimmons and James Corbett. They are, in my mind - and maybe I'm wrong - transitional fighters. As kids, as teenagers London Prize Ring rules was the way of the world. Yes they fought with gloves but early training, early thinking about the sport was was LPR.

Jim Jeffries grew up after LPR rules were long gone. How to place him in the panthelon of greats? If we rate Jack Johnson great, I suppose we rate Jim Jeffries him up as well.

BUT ... we have no film, very little film pre-1910. Look at the issues we have rating Greb. How good was he? He beat Tunney, embarrased Dempsey in training. The man was fantastic, and yet can we truly say he was the best middleweight ever?

WRONG !!!

:-- JOHN L. SULLIVAN Did Start in the LPRR era, but late. Sullivan though had just 4 bare knuckle fights, He had many times that many fights under MQ Rules. In fact John L. Sullivan is the man who basically invented the art of gloved fighting.

SULLIVAN WAS A BOXING REVOLUTIONARY !!!!!!! It was John L. Sullivan who demanded that the sport change and only had LPRR fights under duress. Contrary to SOME modern opinions, Sullivan in his prime was certainly aggressive but he displayed great skills of avoiding blows, he bashed without getting bashed, and made of high tensile steel. There are descriptions of this

JLS was NOT a clumsy or unintelligent boxer,

Our sport today developed because he Made the sport what it is today. It was his pure star power that made it possible, until he came along, gloved fighting was considered a "pussie's version of the REAL thing. thanks,....... McGee !