Swap out Gene Tunney with Larry Holmes?

[Kid McCoy]

Another thing to consider is that Tunney retired in his prime. He left boxing to marry his wife, the heiress to the Carniege fortune. She didn't want him to fight any more and he didn't particularly care. At 30 years old he retired as champion of the world, married to a beautiful and wealthy woman. If not for that he could have held on to the belt until Joe Louis came around. Max Schmeling, Jack Sharkey, Primo Carnera wouldn't have beaten him. Maybe a Max Baer would have beaten a 36 year old Tunney.

But one thing is for certain. If he chose boxing he would have easily won his next 10+ fights.

He made the right choice. He married his love, had his health and fortune and lived a good life.

But Tunney is very unproven at heavyweight. The only top heavyweight he ever beat was Dempsey and that was a faded, inactive Dempsey. I don't think he'd be a certainty to beat good young heavyweights like Baer, Sharkey or Schmeling, because he didn't fight any.

Tunney is similar to Marciano in that he didn't stick around long enough at heavyweight for someone to beat him. He just did what he did and then retired. It's a lot harder to imagine someone losing when they never lost, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done.

[bklynboy]

But Tunney is very unproven at heavyweight. The only top heavyweight he ever beat was Dempsey and that was a faded, inactive Dempsey. I don't think he'd be a certainty to beat good young heavyweights like Baer, Sharkey or Schmeling, because he didn't fight any.

Tunney is similar to Marciano in that he didn't stick around long enough at heavyweight for someone to beat him. He just did what he did and then retired. It's a lot harder to imagine someone losing when they never lost, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done.

You make a good point. We can't really know of course: but he beat ATG fighters and he certainly had a few more great years ahead of him. What would we think of him if he had another 10 title defenses (even if they were of middle-of-the-road caliber fighters) and he retired undefeated 3 years later?

He also didn't make friends in the boxing business. His reputation would be a lot higher if he stayed in the fighting game a few more years.

[Kid McCoy]

You make a good point. We can't really know of course: but he beat ATG fighters and he certainly had a few more great years ahead of him. What would we think of him if he had another 10 title defenses (even if they were of middle-of-the-road caliber fighters) and he retired undefeated 3 years later?

But on the other hand you could say retiring when he did secured his legend, because we never got to see him get beaten. What would his reputation be now if he'd stayed on and lost in his next defence against Sharkey or Schmeling? If he'd beaten all the early 30s contenders and somehow managed to hang on until Louis, I'd be much more confident ranking him one of the great heavyweights. As it is he's an unproven quantity in the division.

[sonnyboyx2]

But on the other hand you could say retiring when he did secured his legend, because we never got to see him get beaten. What would his reputation be now if he'd stayed on and lost in his next defence against Sharkey or Schmeling? If he'd beaten all the early 30s contenders and somehow managed to hang on until Louis, I'd be much more confident ranking him one of the great heavyweights. As it is he's an unproven quantity in the division.

Tunney should have been undefeated his entire career with his sole career defeat to Greb being down to circumstances and Tunney mastering Greb the next 4 times he fought him.. But you wont have that as you have a hatred for Tunney

[Kid McCoy]

Tunney should have been undefeated his entire career with his sole career defeat to Greb being down to circumstances and Tunney mastering Greb the next 4 times he fought him.. But you wont have that as you have a hatred for Tunney

What, the circumstance that he was whooped by Greb?

You're acting like a petulant little girl now. Get over it.

[sonnyboyx2]

What, the circumstance that he was whooped by Greb?

You're acting like a petulant little girl now. Get over it.

Here you are.....

As Gene would recall in later years, the problems started in the run-up to the fight. “Whilst training for the Greb match, which took place just four months after the Battling Levinsky match, I had the worst possible kind of luck. My left eyebrow was opened and both hands were sorely injured. I had a partial reappearance of the old left elbow trouble, which prevented my using a left jab. Dr Robert J Shea, a close friend who took care of me during my training, thought that a hypodermic injection of adrenaline chloride over the left eye would prevent bleeding when the cut was re-opened by Greb. At my request he injected a hypodermic solution of novocaine into the knuckles of both hands as well. We locked the dressing room door during this performance.

“George Engle, Greb’s manager, wanting to watch the bandages being put on, came over to my dressing room and found the door bolted. He shouted and ******. We could not allow him in until the doctor had finished his work. Getting in finally, he insisted that I remove all the bandages so that he could see whether I had any unlawful substance under them. I refused. He made an awful squawk, ranting in and out of the room. I became angry. Eventually I realised Engle was only trying to protect his fighter, and if I let it get my goat that was my hard luck. Moreover, his not being allowed into the dressing room made the situation look su****ious. I unwound the bandages from my hands and satisfied George that all was well.”

All was not well, however. Tunney’s problems had just begun and the doctor’s injections only served to endanger Gene even more when the perpetual motion machine that was Harry Greb started firing. Tunney quickly stumbled into a nightmare, as he would recall in typically clinical detail: “In the first exchange in the first round, I sustained a double fracture of the nose, which bled continually until the finish. Toward the end of the first round, my left eyebrow was laid open four inches. I am convinced that the adrenaline solution that had been injected so softened the tissue that the first blow or butt I received cut the flesh right to the bone.

“In the third round another cut over the right eye left me looking through a red film. For the best part of twelve rounds, I saw this red phantom-like form dancing before me. I had provided myself with a fifty per cent mixture of brandy and orange juice to take between rounds in the event I became weak from loss of blood. I had never taken anything during a fight up to that time. Nor did I ever again.

“It is impossible to describe the bloodiness of this fight. My seconds were unable to stop either the bleeding from the cut over my left eye, which involved a severed artery, or the bleeding consequent to the nose fractures. Doc Bagley, who was my chief second, made futile attempts to congeal the nose bleeding by pouring adrenaline into his hand and having me snuff it up my nose. This I did round after round. The adrenaline, instead of coming out through the nose again, ran down my throat with the blood and into my stomach.

“At the end of the twelfth round, I believed it was a good time to take a swallow of this brandy and orange juice. It had hardly gotten to my stomach when the ring started whirling around. The bell rang for the thirteenth round; the seconds pushed me from my chair. I actually saw two red opponents. How I ever survived the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth rounds is still a mystery to me. At any rate, the only consciousness I had was to keep trying. I knew if I ever relaxed, I would either collapse or the referee would stop the brutality.”

The punishing loss to Greb produced what was probably the greatest example of Gene’s single-mindedness. Taking to his sick bed, he plotted a way to beat Harry with all the attention to detail of a pernickety draughtsman. There was no room for self-pity in Tunney’s game plan for climbing life’s ladder. One wonders if Gene even understood that emotion. “Well, Harry you were the better man tonight,” he told Greb after their classic first encounter. Tunney’s use of the word ‘tonight’ was quite intentional. As he later admitted with quiet coldness, “I meant that literally.” The two titans of the ring would clash four more times, and while it is something of a myth to say that Gene mastered Harry, Tunney was certainly the overall victor. Greb would later say, “I have boxed Dempsey and Tunney. You never know how good Tunney is until you box him.”

“Gene’s greatest strength was his defence. Legendary fight trainer Ray Arcel worshipped Gene and talked tons about Tunney’s mental strength and acumen. As with any contact sport, defence is what triggers offence. Naturally, Gene stands among the greatest ever counter punchers. The best mirror image of Tunney is Benny Leonard, whose vaunted defence actuated his great offence and counter punching. It’s no surprise that Gene, Benny and Ray Arcel were bosom buddies, synergetic triplets born from the same advent.”

[Kid McCoy]

Greb was blind in one eye and a veteran of about 200 wars when he fought Tunney. That more than cancels out whatever excuses Tunney had for losing to an older, smaller fighter with much more wear and tear.

[GJC]

Here you are.....

As Gene would recall in later years,

Sonny a fellow who has read as many boxing books as yourself would know to always take boxers memories with a pinch of salt. You've read "in this Corner"? Classic examples in there of boxers both describing the same fight which sounds totally different.
I could count on one hand the amount of times a boxer has said he beat me fair and square and was the better man.
I have heard countless times, weight drained, home town decision, was injured, referee ruined my chances etc etc etc.

I wouldn't call most fighters liars but would say that they have to get in the mind set they they can't be beaten and as I know when you get older your mind gets selective.