Jimmy McLarnin vs Hall Of Famers

[BennyST]

Duran fought featherweights and bantamweights early in his career. Why? Because they were guys within his weight range while he was a young fighter still growing. McLarnin wasn't a flyweight but at one time he was small enough for fights with men that size to be viable. Tony Canzoneri's best days were at 135/140 and he also fought a lot of featherweights and bantamweights as a neophyte. You could go back and say Marcel and Kobayashi were naturally smaller men than Duran. That he later filled out into a bigger man is irrelevant because the size difference was negligible when they met.

Do you believe any 17 year old with a 6lb weight advantage would beat Villa? If you do then I think you're wrong. If you don't then that means something other than size contributed to McLarnin winning. I think you're overestimating the height advantage too. Jimmy Wilde was a 5'2" flyweight and was able to beat bantamweights and featherweights. To me it shows McLarnin's class as a fighter that as a scrawny teenager he beat a vastly more experienced Hall of Fame great, 6lb weight advantage or not (if it was something like a 20lb advantage you'd have a case). Taking into account McLarnin's youth and Villa's experience, I think it was a great win which was down to a lot more than just a 6lb weight advantage.

Here's a report of the fight. Sounds like Villa's recent visit to a dentist was more important than the weight difference:

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi...19250815.2.112

No, of course not. Nor did I say that. I said they are both great fighters. Often, when two great fighters meet there can be something that gives one the edge. I think McLarnin being bigger was a reason.

I agree completely. The reason I think he won was because they were both great fighters, Villa having a massive experience edge, but McLarnin's size difference helped him to win. In my opinion.

I think it's a great win. I'm not saying it's not. I think one of the reasons he won though is because he was bigger.

Maybe it wasn't though. Maybe it was something completely different. That's just my take on the fight and the reason he beat Villa.

It might have ended up the same way if Villa was the same height and weight as him, it might not have.

Still, I think there is a much greater difference from a guy both being in the same division together, as Duran was when he fought Marcel/Kobayashi to fighting a guy who is literally a Flyweight at five feet tall to fighting a guy who got down as low as 121 with a five or so inch height advantage. They weren't in the same division when they fought. That's what I'm getting at. Villa was a 112 pounder and usually weighed in well below that. For this one fight he went up to 115 and fought a guy who was usually a featherweight.

I think it might have made a difference. Maybe not.

[Kid McCoy]

No, of course not. Nor did I say that. I said they are both great fighters. Often, when two great fighters meet there can be something that gives one the edge. I think McLarnin being bigger was a reason.

I agree completely. The reason I think he won was because they were both great fighters, Villa having a massive experience edge, but McLarnin's size difference helped him to win. In my opinion.

I think it's a great win. I'm not saying it's not. I think one of the reasons he won though is because he was bigger.

Maybe it wasn't though. Maybe it was something completely different. That's just my take on the fight and the reason he beat Villa.

It might have ended up the same way if Villa was the same height and weight as him, it might not have.

Fair enough then. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. In this case I think their advantages/disadvantages mostly canceled each other out. In fact, but for his injury Villa might have actually won as the scores were close. I wonder how much credit Villa would get for a win over a young McLarnin.

Based on his opposition and the few weights recorded by Boxrec, McLarnin was floating around the 120lb mark, so it wouldn't be out of the question to fight a man 7/8lbs lighter than himself. Against a lesser fighter than McClarnin, Villa probably would have won regardless (he did beat Bud Taylor, who McLarnin lost to twice). Those type of match-ups happened all the time. Robinson was at a 16lb disadvantage for one of the LaMotta fights. It's not as if McLarnin came all the way down from welter to tackle a flyweight, which is why I objected to the Ricky Hatton comparison.

[Obama]

McLarnin wasn't a Flyweight when he beat Villa, but he did start out as a Flyweight. He beat Fidel LaBarba for the Pacific Coast Flyweight Title.

LeBarba might have been inexperienced as a pro at the time, but he was an extremely decorated amateur, back when amateur boxing was a lot like professional boxing no less.

[PEBBLES!]

Here's a report of the fight. Sounds like Villa's recent visit to a dentist was more important than the weight difference:

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi...19250815.2.112

Very good read. Thanks for the input Benny & Kid.

What effects do you believe Villa's swollen jaw would have had during the fight due to his teeth infection? From reading the article, it seems it wasn't really a major factor in the fight - Villa seemed to be in the fight, with a fair few even rounds.

Pancho was only 25 years old or so going into the fight and he did have a victory over Bud Taylor, at bantamweight, no less, who even had a 4 pound weight advantage over him. So you have to wonder how much of an emphasis you need to place on weight being a major factor in the outcome of the fight between Jimmy.

McLarnin, being only 17, was fighting at a weight that was natural to his under-developed body at the time and he had to overcome a significant experience disadvantage.

Do you give absolute, full credit to McLarnin for this victory, Kid McCoy? Moreover, being that Villa unfortunately died at a desperately young age, would you agree that he was still in his prime and fighting above his optimum weight-class, or still in his prime and just naturally developed into a bigger fighter, with weight giving him no real disadvantage?

[McGoorty]

I'm interested to read your opinions on McLarnin's record vs HOF's. He has victories over 13 HOF's if you include his DQ win over Bud Taylor and his KO over Ruby Goldstein (HOF Referee). He defeated every Hall of Famer he faced with the exception of a SD loss to Lou Brouillard.

Jimmy McLarnin

vs Tony Canzoneri
1 Win - 1 Loss

vs Barney Ross
1 Win - 2 Losses

vs Lou Ambers
1 Win

vs Benny Leonard
1 Win [TKO]

vs Billy Petrolle
2 Wins - 1 Loss

vs Bud Taylor
1 Win [DQ] - 2 Losses

vs Pancho Villa
1 Win

vs Fidel LaBarba
2 Wins - 1 Draw

vs Young Corbett III
1 Win [TKO]

vs Sammy Mandell
2 Wins - 1 Loss

vs Kid Kaplan
1 Win [KO]

vs Jackie Fields
1 Win [KO]

vs Lou Brouillard
1 loss [SD]

Ruby Goldstein
1 Win [KO]


Overall Record vs Hall of Famers;

Won 17 [KO 5] + lost 8 [KO 0] + Draw 1

Won 18 [KO 6] + lost 8 [KO 0] + Draw 1*


*Record With Ruby Goldstein Win

From the Hall of Famers Jimmy McLarnin defeated, list whether you believe the opponent was either green, prime, post-prime or over-the-hill. And, if possible, if McLarnin was either green, prime, post-prime or over-the-hill, as well.


He defeated Canzoneri, Ross & Taylor in their respective 2nd bouts. He also defeated Petrolle in their 2nd and 3rd fight.


Also, which of his opponents were fighting out of their optimum weightclass. I'll do more research on that later.

WOW man, goes to show just how great he is mcLarnin must be ranked very high. One of the all time great Resumes.