After Pacquiao's streak - have any of your P4P lists changed?

[dde91]

its hard to rank fighters while there still active because everybody has opinions, but within the past 2 years Pacquiao has cemented his name to be spoken with the like of Robinson, leonard, Duran, pep, Armstrong, etc. guys who where p4p greats in there times. Pacquiao to me could be anywhere top 10 p4p. Just mattters how you see it.

[CarlosG815]

It's relevent because your crucifying Manny for fighting EXACTLY the kind of opponents you're giving the "other guy" a pass on. And if Mosley isn't shot please explain his last fight. The dude is 39 and looks aweful. Hand speed? Gone. Reflexes? Shot. If Manny were to fight Mosley he'd get the same kind of crap he's getting for fighting Margarito (a fighter much closer to prime than Mosley is). At least Margarito was a full-fledged Middleweight on fight night.

Poet

I never gave even brought up Floyd, as he has no frame of reference here. This is not NSB, so why pretend that it is?

You believe Mosley is so shot? I disagree with you. And if Manny doesn't get "crap" for fighting Margarito and Clottey, but instead gets called "The best ever" what makes you believe that people will give him crap for beating Mosley?

Why are you talking like size matters? Don't be a double talker, Poet. When Klitschko's are brought up, "size doesn't matter" but when it's Pac and Margarito, size is relevant? Here are the facts: Margarito is SLOW, he has, and never has had even PRIME, NO HAND SPEED, he uses his face to block punches, and he is always moving forward. Add to the fact that he is shot.

Now you have a shorter guy who is fast as lightning at getting in and out and is in the prime of his life, and you are saying the other guy had an advantage because he weighed 17 pounds more?

Margarito has a reach advantage, but he has no jab to make it useful, so the fact remains every advantage in this fight went to Pacquiao. Speed, stamina, defense, prime, etc.

So do you believe that Margarito deserved this shot at the title and a big payday more than Mosley? Obviously, Margarito was not competitive at all, do you see Mosley losing every round to Pacquiao as well?

You can't possibly believe that. Mosley at 150 is a threat, and they wanted an 8th title so he was never even considered. Mosley just didn't fit the bill for giving Manny an easy title and that is a fact and I hope that you would agree on that.

[sonnyboyx2]

Yes, really. The ease and precision with which Pacquiao accurately throws four and five punch combos with both hands is just out of this world. Even in the fights he "got his ass kicked" in, against Morales and Marquez, he wasn't completely neutralized in the least. He's developed his offensive game to the point his opponents can barely mount their own offense because Pac uses the opening where they are throwing to put four or five punches in their face.

His combination of speed, power, skill, and stamina absolutely puts him in the conversation for best offensive fighter ever. The best anyone has ever done in Pac's prime is contain his offense, no one has ever neutralized it.

you have said it all here and i totally agree... i have film footage of Ray Robinson in his prime against Bernard Decusen all 15rds as well as Henry Armstrong vs Roderick, Ross, Arizmendi and a few others and in all honesty Pacquiao is up there with them if not better.. Roach has improved him out of all proportion and i would not be surprised if he went all the way to Super Middleweight and made it 10 titles in as many divisions before he calls it a day.. such are his skills that he would be a heavy betting favorite against the 160 & 166lb champions as it is skill, speed and boxing ability not height & weight which win fights and i see no fighter in those two divisions able to beat him

[CarlosG815]

Marquez clearly dominated the first fight. No debate there. But knockdowns count, and Marquez lost 4 points on Pac in that first round, which came back to bite him in the ass.

The second fight was extremely close. Like, holy hell neither guy really won close. Why people say Marquez clearly won the second fight I can't understand, because for every round or two one fighter won, the other would even it up. So no, Marquez was not anything remotely close to robbed.

Pac did not duck Marquez. He fought him twice. Not to mention Marquez constantly pricing himself out of fights, maybe it might have happened earlier but Marquez wanted too much money.

So you are saying that Marquez priced him out and that's why the rematch took 3 years to take place?

And if you really watch the fight and do not listen to Jim Lampley get over excited over nothing, you will notice that Marquez landed more shots, cleaner shots, harder shots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0urCjYl51jc

If you take the time to watch this video it will confirm what most people already knew. Not to mention that everybody in the world and at ringside (the huge majority, and ever Filipino media outlet) scored the fight for Marquez. Maybe you saw the same things as the very few who scored it for Pacquiao? Do you know how to score a fight?

I'm not trying to be a dick but I am outraged. I was outraged when he fought Clottey, and I'm even more outraged that he fought Margarito. It's shameful, disgraceful, is a slap to the face and shouldn't even be going on.

Fight a world class contender or hang them up. Fight somebody good. Fight a live opponent and stop blowing out SHOT bums. Nobody wants to see guys who do not come to fight, ala Clottey and Margarito.

[CarlosG815]

Yes, really. The ease and precision with which Pacquiao accurately throws four and five punch combos with both hands is just out of this world. Even in the fights he "got his ass kicked" in, against Morales and Marquez, he wasn't completely neutralized in the least. He's developed his offensive game to the point his opponents can barely mount their own offense because Pac uses the opening where they are throwing to put four or five punches in their face.

His combination of speed, power, skill, and stamina absolutely puts him in the conversation for best offensive fighter ever. The best anyone has ever done in Pac's prime is contain his offense, no one has ever neutralized it.

Well where were these precise combos when he was fighting a semi live opponent in Erik Morales, and when he fought Marquez? It wasn't there. He couldn't land cleanly on Marquez and when he tried to throw combo's he often looked silly, off balanced, and was almost knocked down himself. He was totally outboxed and it was nothing that we've seen as of late, in how he dominated these shot opponents.

You forget one thing. A boxer with speed has no trouble landing an uppercut on Pacquiao. Pacquiao moves around a lot and when he gets hit, he goes off balance and lands in awkward positions. A good fighter can beat him and beat him fairly easily. The reason he is able to throw so many punches is because he's fighting guys who can't defend and do not have the speed to catch him.

His stamina is incredible, I will give him that. And I'm not saying he's a bad fighter, I'm just saying HOW GREAT CAN WE REALLY SAY HE IS WHEN HE IS FIGHTING SHOT FIGHTERS?

Now you claim "He has developed?" As if he has honed those skills? How so? By fighting Margarito? Even Cotto gave him trouble for a handful of rounds, and he eats left hands for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I'm not saying he can't beat the guys that are out there, I'm just pissed off that he won't fight them, but instead wastes camps on guys like Clottey and Margarito.

Everybody who knows boxing knew how this fight would go down.

This is an old thread, and it looks to me like I hit the nail right on the head, did it not?
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...36#post8781936

I said from the beginning, as soon as it was announced - Don't buy the hype. Marg's is a shot opponent. He is not live and is not coming to fight. He will lose every round.

[CarlosG815]

you have said it all here and i totally agree... i have film footage of Ray Robinson in his prime against Bernard Decusen all 15rds as well as Henry Armstrong vs Roderick, Ross, Arizmendi and a few others and in all honesty Pacquiao is up there with them if not better.. Roach has improved him out of all proportion and i would not be surprised if he went all the way to Super Middleweight and made it 10 titles in as many divisions before he calls it a day.. such are his skills that he would be a heavy betting favorite against the 160 & 166lb champions as it is skill, speed and boxing ability not height & weight which win fights and i see no fighter in those two divisions able to beat him

When did Ray Robinson and Henry Armstrong ever fight 2 bums a year? 2010 was a complete sham and robbery of boxing fans for Manny Pacquiao. Those were legitimate top contenders at their peak when Manny fought them? There weren't better fighters out there to fight?

He cannot possibly be in the same conversation as those guys. If Manny fought 10 times a year like Ray Robinson, I could care less if he fought Margarito twice that year. But the fact is, he fights twice a year, and he fights BUMS.

[T.Horton]

Thanks for making something of this thread, fellows. I want to make my own p4p list and I respect the knowledge of all of you. Before I make my list I wanted to see your opinions. I know Pacquiao is not a historic figure yet so you guys taking the time to respond is cool.

Thanks.

[RubenSonny]

Yes, really. The ease and precision with which Pacquiao accurately throws four and five punch combos with both hands is just out of this world. Even in the fights he "got his ass kicked" in, against Morales and Marquez, he wasn't completely neutralized in the least. He's developed his offensive game to the point his opponents can barely mount their own offense because Pac uses the opening where they are throwing to put four or five punches in their face.

His combination of speed, power, skill, and stamina absolutely puts him in the conversation for best offensive fighter ever. The best anyone has ever done in Pac's prime is contain his offense, no one has ever neutralized it.

That is the same for many fighters doesnt mean hes in the coversation for greatest offense.

[StarshipTrooper]

I never gave even brought up Floyd, as he has no frame of reference here. This is not NSB, so why pretend that it is?

Because I'm not stupid and know what frame of reference this is coming from.

You believe Mosley is so shot? I disagree with you. And if Manny doesn't get "crap" for fighting Margarito and Clottey, but instead gets called "The best ever" what makes you believe that people will give him crap for beating Mosley?

Aren't you giving Pacquiao crap in this thread for fighting Marg and Clottey? 'Nuff said! Did you even WATCH Shane's last fight? Hell, his last TWO fights? What more evidence do you want that he's shot?

Why are you talking like size matters? Don't be a double talker, Poet. When Klitschko's are brought up, "size doesn't matter" but when it's Pac and Margarito, size is relevant? Here are the facts: Margarito is SLOW, he has, and never has had even PRIME, NO HAND SPEED, he uses his face to block punches, and he is always moving forward. Add to the fact that he is shot.

Now you have a shorter guy who is fast as lightning at getting in and out and is in the prime of his life, and you are saying the other guy had an advantage because he weighed 17 pounds more?

Whether I believe the weight difference matters is irrelevent. What IS relevent is it WILL be regarded as an accomplishment by the boxing world. While I personally don't see beating Valuev and Ruiz as any big deal both Chagaev and Jones got plenty of kudos from beating the bigger men. I don't see anyone b1tching about that so why dump on Pacquiao for it?

Margarito has a reach advantage, but he has no jab to make it useful, so the fact remains every advantage in this fight went to Pacquiao. Speed, stamina, defense, prime, etc.

And? How would that be any different if he beat up a shot Mosley?

So do you believe that Margarito deserved this shot at the title and a big payday more than Mosley?

Neither deserve a title shot: Margarito because he's a proven cheat who should be permanently BANNED from boxing and Mosley because he's a proven shot fighter who's done nothing to earn a shot beyond happening to have the name "Mosley".

Obviously, Margarito was not competitive at all, do you see Mosley losing every round to Pacquiao as well. You can't possibly believe that.

Like Mosley lost damn near every round to Mayweather? I very much expect a similar dismal performance if he gets fed to Pacquiao.....Not only would I expect Mosley to be completely non-competitive with Pacquiao, not only would expect Mosley to lose damn near every round, but I also would expect Mosley to get stopped.

Mosley at 150 is a threat, and they wanted an 8th title so he was never even considered.

Mosley USED to be a threat. He isn't now. All he has now is his name and that isn't enough to deserve a title shot.

Poet

[tennesseeboy]

great post, and i tend to agree with most of what you said. I do believe pacs last few opponents have been rather questionable, but before he beat all of these guys nobody was talking about them being shot, but maybe margarito? manny makes really good fighters just look stupid... i think also that his tough fights with morales (especially the 1st one) was a result of him being a one handed fighter.. this i am talking about the first morales fight that he lost.. then freddie got ahold of him and taught him to be a two fisted fighter... plus, i believe the weight manny is at now is where he feels the best.. he is much stronger at junior welterweight to welterweight and takes the power and his power to an even greater extreme as he has moved up in these weights.. he has carried the power up well.. anyways, thats just my 2 cents.. i would like him to fight better comp though, i wont lie about that.. nobody has ever made margo look that bad though.. mosley did, but do you really think margaritos mind was on that fight that night? i seriously doubt it, his mind was elsewhere and it shpwed... not saying he woulda beat shane, but that was more of it just being shanes night and the circumstances that led up to that fight.. again, just my opinion