Stanley Ketchel rated Sam Langford as easy!

[Greatest1942]

Don't doubt that Ketchel would have thought he could beat Langford though, by the sound of it Ketchell would have climbed in the ring the day after Johnson poleaxed him and been confident, he was that kind of fighting man.
As to the ins and outs of who "won" the Langford Ketchell fight it wouldn't suprise me if they both choreographed the whole fight with the view to giving the crowd enough of a taster for the real fight.
Shame it never happened it would have been some tear up

Nope...Ketchel after this fight was clearly not interested in Sam. Read the following :-

Last night Ketchel refused a purse of $15,000 to meet Langford, offered by Billy McCarney, who came from California for that purpose. Ketchel said “I have won a popular decision over the negro and I will pass him up at present.”
As for the fight being choreographed here's a part of the action again :-

"The third started with another rush on the part of Ketch. Langford broke ground for an instant and then rushed to close quarters. Ketchel met the rush with a right swing that looked to be able to take the head off any man unfortunate enough to get in its way. Langford wasn’t unfortunate. He let the punch go by and hooked his left twice to the face.

These two blows were the best that the colored man had used up to that time. The second caught Ketchel on the nose and mouth and started blood. From then on Ketchel bled, and soon his face and chest were covered with claret. That did not seem to bother him and it made the spectators think that they were getting full value for the high prices paid."

You can read the round by round action. Each writer/reporter got the impression that Sam was getting the better of the action but not pressing forward which Sam was notorious for doing (carrying his opponents to have a payday). I doubt the fight was choreographed. I doubt if it was choreographed it will be done in such a way that it will let Ketchel cover in blood while show Sam having the advantage consistently while seemingly never giving his best while Ketchel tried his hardest.

My last point is, whatever it was apparently it convinced Ketchel to want no part in Sam from thenceforth. As for the fight I believe there are a lot of remarks about Sam being under pull but as for the impression given by Ketchel read this
To his credit it can be said that Ketchel did not appear to be “in on the play”. He fought as he always does, hard from the first bell to the end, and was always trying to land a knockout punch. ....

Or

The fighting in the first round had a slight odor of rat to it. After the men had been sparring for a few seconds Ketchel started one of his famous shifts,seemingly being anxious to win with his first punch. He never finished shifting, for he saw at once that Langford was not where the blow was to go

Or.......

And so the fight went until the last round. Ketchel was always trying and his best efforts were set at naught by the cleverness of his colored opponent.


It seems there are a lot of remark about Ketchel giving his best and a lot about Langford not giving his.As for the next fight, it was scheduled read this "That question will only be answered when the two men meet in a longer bout on the Pacific coast." BUt Ketchel didn't want any part of Sam after that it seems:-
Last night Ketchel refused a purse of $15,000 to meet Langford, offered by Billy McCarney, who came from California for that purpose. Ketchel said “I have won a popular decision over the negro and I will pass him up at present.” Can you give me the reason why Ketchel would consider his "popular decsion" while not thinking that it was he who choreographed this with Sam to excuse the fight? May be he knew something as did Nat.

P.s:- I have nothing against your views just that the reports that I read make me think otherwise. I agree with Ketchel beinga great fighting man.I hope you understand that I just have a different conclusion than yours coming from the contemporary reports all saying almost the same thing from different sources. I agree the second fight if it would have happened would have been a cracker. Sam might be the favourite for me, but he would have to go through hell to take it from Stan. Stan was a confident man and he would have believed he could beat Sam...I agree 100% with you. May be just maybe he thought it a bigger risk than it was worth...Just specalution...If he cancelled it before the exhibition I would have been a bit less pessimistic. Just my two cents.

[GJC]

Nope...Ketchel after this fight was clearly not interested in Sam. Read the following :-

Last night Ketchel refused a purse of $15,000 to meet Langford, offered by Billy McCarney, who came from California for that purpose. Ketchel said “I have won a popular decision over the negro and I will pass him up at present.”

To be fair I take newspaper quotes with a pinch of salt plus I wouldn't fault Ketchel for trying to push for a higher purse, remember he did fight Langford in the 1st place whereas so many didn't. Bear in mind Ketchel was dead within 6 months so to call it a duck would be a litle premature.

My last point is, whatever it was apparently it convinced Ketchel to want no part in Sam from thenceforth. As for the fight I believe there are a lot of remarks about Sam being under pull but as for the impression given by Ketchel read this
To his credit it can be said that Ketchel did not appear to be “in on the play”. He fought as he always does, hard from the first bell to the end, and was always trying to land a knockout punch. ....

If you buy into the back story on the Johnson fight it wouldn't have been the first time Ketchel pulled a fast one lol

Sam might be the favourite for me, but he would have to go through hell to take it from Stan. Stan was a confident man and he would have believed he could beat Sam...I agree 100% with you. May be just maybe he thought it a bigger risk than it was worth...Just specalution...If he cancelled it before the exhibition I would have been a bit less pessimistic. Just my two cents.

I too would make Sam the favourite but I wouldn't put a huge bet on it, it would have been one of the great fights. For Ketchel I guess you can say that risk versus reward comes into play plus the fact that in those days it was almost accepted that you avoid black fighters. I do think though that Ketchel would have fought a tiger if the money was right for him.

Great research on this by the way.

[Greatest1942]

To be fair I take newspaper quotes with a pinch of salt plus I wouldn't fault Ketchel for trying to push for a higher purse, remember he did fight Langford in the 1st place whereas so many didn't. Bear in mind Ketchel was dead within 6 months so to call it a duck would be a litle premature.

But you know I dont, or it depends when it seems to be that there is inneccessary romanticization I leave it , buT i have read reports of dempsey-Firpo, Dempsey-Lougharn, Louis -Conn and have also found that they are fine in every respect. These reports of Sam and Ketchels fight are the one i submitted because I saw that they are given in a matter of fact manner, with round by round desciptions that seem to be accurate. But everyone has their own choices...SO its okay...You are dead right about Ketchel's death and if he lived I am sure that someday this would happen. I think 15,000 is quite a good sum by those days standard. But he died too soon and thats the reason I can't directly say that he ducked Sam which I will say a hundred time s about Johnson.



"f you buy into the back story on the Johnson fight it wouldn't have been the first time Ketchel pulled a fast one lol"
As I said I trust the reports more than the back stories, that can be quite proven. The reports on multiple places and from multiple sources says he was giving his best with sam holding back. Do you believe that you cant today tell when Lennox Lewis or Tyson is at his best and when not...Those reporters I belive saw those guys more than once. and there is Sam's letter where he says "He never had a chance". Anyways I dont believe Sam would have said this if he knew Ketchel was playing around. But you are welcome to your view.



" too would make Sam the favourite but I wouldn't put a huge bet on it, it would have been one of the great fights. For Ketchel I guess you can say that risk versus reward comes into play plus the fact that in those days it was almost accepted that you avoid black fighters. I do think though that Ketchel would have fought a tiger if the money was right for him."

Sam was regularly fighting and whipping Heavys, Sam McVea, Joe Jeanette so I believe he was in a better position. Glad we agree on something. I will try to find out how much Ketchel made in his later on prior fights before this. Yes if the money was much less than he was making, I believe Sam was too great a risk. But if it was similar to what he was making I doubt I can say that. Still Ketchel died so young and so soon I find it very hard to hold this against him ...May be later on with growing demand for the fight he would have fought..In my minds eye I can see him doing that.

Here's what the great Joe Gans thought about that scheduled fight:-
"Gans was this morning asked to express an opinion on the Ketchel-Langford fight which is to take place in Frisco on July 3 and which is second in importance only to the Jeffries-Johnson bout. His reply was that he considered Ketchel a great fighter, but thought Langford was a better one.

"Ketchel can hit a blow with either hand that is like the kick of a mule and woudl lay Langford or any other man low that it struck, but Langford is also a terrific hitter and in addition is a mighty clever man and hard to hit. I figure that Langford will win over Ketchel well within the twenty-five rounds that the fight has been limited to."

Gans was Langford's chief second a couple of months ago when the wonderful Weymouth negro fought Ketchel six rounds in Philadelphia. In speaking of this fight, Gans said this morning that Langford for three rounds simply tore Ketchel to pieces, slowing up for trhe last three rounds evidently with the idea of saving Ketchel for a longer fight."

"reat research on this by the way."
Er...Thanks for the compliment and the debate.

[Greatest1942]

“Poor Steve [Stanley’s nickname], he went to his grave thinking he could really lick ol’ Sam.” Sam Langford.