Is Ray Robinson's speed overstated?

[Sugarj]

I got into this arguement with you, because of some one putting Leonard as a better puncher than Ray.
1)I believe KO artists have a mindset, Leonard was clever but he did leave that mindset at home, when he fought some of his more important fights.

2)Well, Leonard never even at Welter carried the stop dead power...He had KO ability but against the best he rarelt had one

3) He attacked LaDonda and Hearns yes, but after hurting them and then becoming the aggressor. Starting the fight as an aggressor and finishing it was never his cup of tea( I meant this from the beginning , but if my comments mislead you I am sorry).

Someother day we will argue about this further, cheers about the good debate.

Aye, a good debate is what these forums are about, but I never saw it as an argument. I've never disagreed about Robinson being the better Sugar.

Granted, Leonard was no Tyson, Shavers or Louis but I liked alot of his knockouts, you could make a great highlight reel of them......there probably is one on You-Tube. Perhaps it is in interpretation of the term 'KO artist'. I found quite alot of his KOs/TKOs pretty artistic indeed and he ratted off plenty in his prime.

As for stop dead power, I've seen him hurt/deck or KO people with most punches in the book albeit at a lower level than the Haglers or Durans. However, I never really found two of your other faves (Monzon/Hagler) to have that 'stop dead power' really either. They both seemed to grind you down more than anything with an accumulation of punches rather than one punch. Granted, Hagler looked superb against Hearns........ and I'd never suggest that middleweight Leonard punched as hard as either......but pound for pound? I dont think there is too much in it.

Another thing that jumped to mind also is in Hagler vs Duran. I wouldn't have said that Marvin pursued a knockout much more than Leonard did when facing Mr Hands of Stone. Just a thought......

[Holtol]

Robinson knocking out fullmer, fast hard left hook at around 8 min 40 sec in to the video.



Robinson knocking out Graziano at about 8 min with a fast 4 punch combo.



I really can't think of to many boxers much faster. And after over 100 years of boxing He was likely in the upper 1/32nd of a percent boxers all time. One of the fasted all time maybe a few would be very slightly faster.

[Greatest1942]

Aye, a good debate is what these forums are about, but I never saw it as an argument. I've never disagreed about Robinson being the better Sugar.

Granted, Leonard was no Tyson, Shavers or Louis but I liked alot of his knockouts, you could make a great highlight reel of them......there probably is one on You-Tube. Perhaps it is in interpretation of the term 'KO artist'. I found quite alot of his KOs/TKOs pretty artistic indeed and he ratted off plenty in his prime.

As for stop dead power, I've seen him hurt/deck or KO people with most punches in the book albeit at a lower level than the Haglers or Durans. However, I never really found two of your other faves (Monzon/Hagler) to have that 'stop dead power' really either. They both seemed to grind you down more than anything with an accumulation of punches rather than one punch. Granted, Hagler looked superb against Hearns........ and I'd never suggest that middleweight Leonard punched as hard as either......but pound for pound? I dont think there is too much in it.

Another thing that jumped to mind also is in Hagler vs Duran. I wouldn't have said that Marvin pursued a knockout much more than Leonard did when facing Mr Hands of Stone. Just a thought......

P4P Monzoon and Hagler threw harder punches , sorry to disgress when you look at their vidoes at middle weight and their carrer KO percentage at Middle I am sure you will agree both of them hit harder. Both had KO powers more than Leonard, but yes did not have the bone cruching stop dead power either.

Yea Hagler did pursue Duran and could not KO him, and never even hurt him significantly, but I will wager my friend Duran can tell you who hit harder.

Hagler did finish off a hurt Hearns in 3 rounds while Leonard.....Do you want to say at middle Leonard hits harder than either dont think so...And trust me p4p Jimmy Wilde hits harder.

BY the way Hagler is not my favourite . Just said he is a better puncher than Leonard...But I accept Leonard was a good puncher too.

Anywasy cheers!!!

[Sugarj]

[QUOTE=Greatest1942;9284177]P4P Monzoon and Hagler threw harder punches , sorry to disgress when you look at their vidoes at middle weight and their carrer KO percentage at Middle I am sure you will agree both of them hit harder. Both had KO powers more than Leonard, but yes did not have the bone cruching stop dead power either.

Yea Hagler did pursue Duran and could not KO him, and never even hurt him significantly, but I will wager my friend Duran can tell you who hit harder.

Hagler did finish off a hurt Hearns in 3 rounds while Leonard.....Do you want to say at middle Leonard hits harder than either dont think so...And trust me p4p Jimmy Wilde hits harder.

BY the way Hagler is not my favourite . Just said he is a better puncher than Leonard...But I accept Leonard was a good puncher too.



Agreed, at middle it was a different story. Duran did compliment Leonard's hitting power at welter though.

As for Mr Wilde, a freak of nature. As wild as his name, but my word, he could punch.

Who would you say is your favorite boxer of all time? Mr 1942 himself, Ali?

[Greatest1942]

[QUOTE=Sugarj;9284312]

P4P Monzoon and Hagler threw harder punches , sorry to disgress when you look at their vidoes at middle weight and their carrer KO percentage at Middle I am sure you will agree both of them hit harder. Both had KO powers more than Leonard, but yes did not have the bone cruching stop dead power either.

Yea Hagler did pursue Duran and could not KO him, and never even hurt him significantly, but I will wager my friend Duran can tell you who hit harder.

Hagler did finish off a hurt Hearns in 3 rounds while Leonard.....Do you want to say at middle Leonard hits harder than either dont think so...And trust me p4p Jimmy Wilde hits harder.

BY the way Hagler is not my favourite . Just said he is a better puncher than Leonard...But I accept Leonard was a good puncher too.

Agreed, at middle it was a different story. Duran did compliment Leonard's hitting power at welter though.

As for Mr Wilde, a freak of nature. As wild as his name, but my word, he could punch.

Who would you say is your favorite boxer of all time? Mr 1942 himself, Ali?

I have nothing but respect for Ali. I have more for Louis...But my favourites are

1) Ezzard Charles
2) Benny Leonard (love reading about him a lot) and a host of others but these are my top 2.

Sugar Ray is the best fighter which I saw and to me Louis is the #1 heavy with Ali just a fraction behind...And yours are?

[Sugarj]

[QUOTE=Greatest1942;9286290]

[B]

I have nothing but respect for Ali. I have more for Louis...But my favourites are

1) Ezzard Charles
2) Benny Leonard (love reading about him a lot) and a host of others but these are my top 2.

Sugar Ray is the best fighter which I saw and to me Louis is the #1 heavy with Ali just a fraction behind...And yours are?

Yep Charles, B. Leonard, Ali and Louis are all faves.

If I had to compile a favorite top ten in no order it would contain the following:

Ali
Ray Robinson
Willie Pep
Jersey Joe Walcott
Gene Tunney
Larry Holmes
Roy Jones Jnr
Mike Tyson
Ray Leonard
Marco Antonio Barrera

I suppose there is a bit of a pattern there, with the exception of prime Tyson and prime Barrera the rest are all slick speedsters. I like combination punchers with good mobility and footwork. Floyd Patterson narrowly missed the list.......and Chris Eubank and Naseem Hamed entertained me as much as anyone 15-20 years ago.

When you say 'Ray Robinson is the best I saw' do you mean that you actually attended one or more of his fights?

[Greatest1942]

[QUOTE=Sugarj;9287646]

Yep Charles, B. Leonard, Ali and Louis are all faves.

If I had to compile a favorite top ten in no order it would contain the following:

Ali
Ray Robinson
Willie Pep
Jersey Joe Walcott
Gene Tunney
Larry Holmes
Roy Jones Jnr
Mike Tyson
Ray Leonard
Marco Antonio Barrera

I suppose there is a bit of a pattern there, with the exception of prime Tyson and prime Barrera the rest are all slick speedsters. I like combination punchers with good mobility and footwork. Floyd Patterson narrowly missed the list.......and Chris Eubank and Naseem Hamed entertained me as much as anyone 15-20 years ago.

When you say 'Ray Robinson is the best I saw' do you mean that you actually attended one or more of his fights?

God no...from what little I saw of him in film..the speed,power,accuracy everything...It combined so well into one package.

And I do agree with you that Leonard has good power at Welter weight...It wasn't stop dead power but it was solid. Very good underrated power but no where near Ray's at Welterweight. I protested when someone put forward the comment that leonard had more power than Ray. Just that. Leonard was good, very good puncher just not an ATG puncher (inspite of having some good KO's). Not only do I believe you agree with me, but I am pretty sure most people and the Ring also agrees with me on this one.

By the by your list was great...Lots of my faves in there too.Willie Pep is a fav of mine too. As is Walcott and Tunney. It turns out we have a lot in common, and ultimately arguing about something we agree for the most part in.

[Greatest1942]

[QUOTE=Sugarj;9287646]

Yep Charles, B. Leonard, Ali and Louis are all faves.

If I had to compile a favorite top ten in no order it would contain the following:

Ali
Ray Robinson
Willie Pep
Jersey Joe Walcott
Gene Tunney
Larry Holmes
Roy Jones Jnr
Mike Tyson
Ray Leonard
Marco Antonio Barrera

I suppose there is a bit of a pattern there, with the exception of prime Tyson and prime Barrera the rest are all slick speedsters. I like combination punchers with good mobility and footwork. Floyd Patterson narrowly missed the list.......and Chris Eubank and Naseem Hamed entertained me as much as anyone 15-20 years ago.

When you say 'Ray Robinson is the best I saw' do you mean that you actually attended one or more of his fights?

God no...from what little I saw of him in film..the speed,power,accuracy everything...It combined so well into one package.

And I do agree with you that Leonard has good power at Welter weight...It wasn't stop dead power but it was solid. Very good underrated power but no where near Ray's at Welterweight. I protested when someone put forward the comment that leonard had more power than Ray. Just that. Leonard was good, very good puncher just not an ATG puncher (inspite of having some good KO's). Not only do I believe you agree with me, but I am pretty sure most people and the Ring also agrees with me on this one.

By the by your list is great...Lots of my faves in there too.Willie Pep is a fav of mine too. As is Walcott and Tunney. It turns out we have a lot in common, and ultimately were arguing about something we agree for the most part in.

[Sugarj]

[QUOTE=Greatest1942;9288092]

God no...from what little I saw of him in film..the speed,power,accuracy everything...It combined so well into one package.

And I do agree with you that Leonard has good power at Welter weight...It wasn't stop dead power but it was solid. Very good underrated power but no where near Ray's at Welterweight. I protested when someone put forward the comment that leonard had more power than Ray. Just that. Leonard was good, very good puncher just not an ATG puncher (inspite of having some good KO's). Not only do I believe you agree with me, but I am pretty sure most people and the Ring also agrees with me on this one.

By the by your list is great...Lots of my faves in there too.Willie Pep is a fav of mine too. As is Walcott and Tunney. It turns out we have a lot in common, and ultimately were arguing about something we agree for the most part in.

Ha ha, it would make you one of the forums more senior gents if you had attended a Robinson fight. There are a couple of boxing Yodas in these parts......no names!

There is quite a fair bit of Robinson on film out there, just not at welterweight. There is plenty of 1950s to mid 60s fights floating around......and some hi def YouTube submissions.

As for Robinson's power, I'd think most would rate him above Leonard in that department.

Glad you like my faves list, I had you picked as more of a fan of the aggressive come forward type......clearly not!

[Greatest1942]

[QUOTE=Sugarj;9289838]

Ha ha, it would make you one of the forums more senior gents if you had attended a Robinson fight. There are a couple of boxing Yodas in these parts......no names!

There is quite a fair bit of Robinson on film out there, just not at welterweight. There is plenty of 1950s to mid 60s fights floating around......and some hi def YouTube submissions.

As for Robinson's power, I'd think most would rate him above Leonard in that department.

Glad you like my faves list, I had you picked as more of a fan of the aggressive come forward type......clearly not!

I believe I have seen almost everything of Robinson that there is to see. But in respect to his whoel career (200 fights!!!)...its not much, would have loved to see much more. Same of Harry Greb.

I love swarmers or come forward guys too , but I like the typical slick boxers too. Its the variety that makes the sports great...Who can but not like Tunney or Robsinson and I like MArciano or Frazier too. Same of Joe LOuis or Tyson.

Cheers mate..it was a pleasure talking to you.