Higher ATG: Rocky Marciano or George Foreman?

[McGoorty]

IMO, because Heavyweight is weight unlimited, it's not inappropriate to match heavyweights head-to-head (as they actually were) across generations when wondering how they would do against eachother. It's one thing to wonder how a 135 lb Roberto Duran might do against a 175 pound Michael Spinks in a P4P dream matchup but heavies are what they are and Marciano was as small as a heavyweight could be without being a Cruiserweight. So when I imagine Marciano against Foreman or even against a Klitschko, I imagine the fight and consider the result based on their actual sizes, and actual skills.

Yeah, that's fine mate, I understand that is the case when come up with fantasy Matchups between HW era's but the guy who opened his thread was specifically asking P4P and comparing the records and overall dominance and such things we do when we try to make lists that are to represent a very long time span. I tried to do a few threads asking people to make a top ten list of a span of just a decade and only Middleweights, it proved a task that no one got even close to achieving a D minus. I like lists that are more realistic like that,,,,, the open ended character that sets the HW division from all others has always troubled me, I prefer the MW's to the biguns any day........ A MW has always been a MW,,,,,,,,, the MW's today are a little taller but the old MW's were chunkier, but they are perfectly even, you can create a Matchup between Ketchel and Hopkins and it's a fair fight,............ and that's the key for me,...... a FAIR Fight, I've never been impressed when some huge prick beats up a little guy,.... very occasionally the little feller wins, and everybody celebrates,............................. at the beginning of our journey through time, the big hulking fellow has pushed the little guy around until the little guys invented guns that is ( I'll lay odds of a Million to one that the inventor of the gun was without doubt a fellow of Napoleonicly Stupendous Shortness (gee I invented a totally original phrase--- them apples Shakespeare),..................... the point being, guns make a level playing field, after all, who ever heard of the Olympic Heavyweight Double Trap Shooting Gold Medallist,..... or a welterweight olympic PENTATHLETE Silver Medallist.............................. I'm gonna make myself a coffee,

[Forza]

Foreman better fighter, better legacy.

Love marciano and he gets underrated but he would have needed wins over patterson and a green sonny liston to be higher than foreman.

Hell if marciano would have beaten at least patterson he would get much more respect.

Marcianos legacy is littered with wins over great fighters, but they were not "as great" when marciano got to them. Terrible post WW2 era.

[Greatest1942]

I rate Walcott and Charles over Norton...

Marciano is a better match up vs Ali than Foreman.

Against top 2 opponents Rock is 9-0, Foreman is 4-3. Considering how long he fought I would say that George was extremely cautious.

Anyways Foreman himself beat Frazier and Norton...got beaten By Ali and Young. Did not fight Quarry or Shavers (he beats those two in my book)...In my book the Rock beats Frazier and Norton too. Later on Foreman could have fought Holmes but did not..if Foreman beat Ali he would be indisputably better but he lost to Ali and Young

Foreman did beat Peralta a good light heavy whom he could not KO the first time, but Marciano beat Moore who was better. I dont favour many of teh guys Foreman beat to win vs Moore, Frazier and may be Norton and thats it.

Savold, Layne are good wins...they were ranked contenders...Layne was 34-1 when he fought Rocky...May be if Rocky struggled against Layne he would be considered better.

I dont see how Foreman was so far above Marciano.

Layne is very underrated today.
After his loss to MArciano , Layne got derailed he was never the same. But growing up he was considered a live prospect by none other than Nat who rated him highly. He beat Walcoot, Satterfield, Charles all great wins. While Norton has the single biggest win I think layne has more depth in his resume. But the Rocky loss really unsettled him and then he was beaten by Charles the next fight... really lost it after that...but make no mistake he was very good. Heres an article on the man.

THE RIGHT LAYNE
By NAT LOUBET

REX LAYNE, heavyweight challenger, had just added another victim to his collection. Bob Satterfield, Chicagoan, had been raining punches off Rex's cocoanut-like noggin all night. The cherubic-faced Mormon from Lewiston, Utah, fondeled the sore spots. Satterifeld had been laid to rest in 2:56 of the eighth canto when Mark Conn, the arbiter, halted the contest with Bob helples from a short right to the jaw.
The bout had been an even-steven affair up to the knockout, although Layne had received all his punches in one locality- the cephalic, or, as the inmates of Stillman's Gym would have it, the kisser.
It was suggested right after the contest that Rex had youth, strength, could take and give it, had showed improvement in his boxing form since his last two Garden appearances against Jersey Joe Walcott and Cesar Brion, respectively, but that he was still green and needed much seasoning in the technique of boxing.
Marvin Jensen, the mink-raising guardian of Layne's ring fortunes, rushed to the defense. "He can box a lot better than he has shown since coming East. Did you see that boy punch? Ole Rex here sure has what it takes. He's full of fight.
"Yeah," someone said, "but how long will he be full of fight if he doesn't learn how to protect himself better?"
Rex interrupted: "A couple more fights like this and I'll be playing marbles," he quipped.
Regardless of his record, an enviable on of 32 fights with only one loss, that to Dave Whitlock whom he defeated in two other outings, it is clear that Rex will have his greatest trouble with fast men who can move around. He won't lose anything by picking up a little more polish in the finer points of boxing.

REX started his boxing career while a sergeant with the 187th Regiment of the 11th Airborne Division, located in the Asiatic theatre. He had enlisted in September, 1946, and was mustered out in March, 1948. In the interim, he won regimental and divisional titles. He came close to carrying home the bacon in the All-Japan tournaments in 1947 and 1948, and but a lad by the name of Howard Williams kept him from achieving that end.
It wasn't until 1949 that Layne made the simon-pure "big time." In that year he won the National A.A.U. championship and a few months later turned professional. His amateur record stands at 26 fights, with only four losses.
After Layne's unimpressive win over Cesar Brion we were visited by the mild-mannered, bashful, boyish Rex and his enthusiastic manager, Jensen.
Jensen recounted the thrill in seeing the best of the breed come into its own; how he had thrilled in raising the best mink and now he was seeing "ole Rex" become a serious contender for heavyweight honors.
It was less than two years ago that THE RING picked Layne as a comer, and he has kept faith by making the grade.
A group had gathered and someone said, "Rex has a whale of a right, but why doesn't he use his left more?"
Jensen jumped into the breach. "Ole Rex here has a dandy of a left hand but he injured it in an early fight and only recently has he started to develop it again."
Rex cut in with: "That's right. My left is beginning to shape up again. I feel it in my gym workouts, and I'll be using it more as I go along."
In his fight with Satterfield, Rex showed improvement with that left, and better boxing form, but he is still way off in ring science and unless he learns how to protect himself, how to avoid powerful wallops such as he got in the Satterfield bout, he'll fail to reach his objective. He's too wide open for punishment.

JENSEN has been the butt of a great deal of criticism from New York scribes for the manner in which he has brought Layne along. His critics claim that his boy was too green for the likes of a Walcott; should never have been in with an awkward spoiler like Brion, and that Satterfield was too strong a puncher for the Utah youngster.
"He's being fed to the lions," has been the cry. But Layne has defeated all three, and by so doing, he is now in a spot to demand recognition as a top challenger. After all, success is what counts, and Layne has come through with victories. His T.N.T. sock and courage have done that for him.
Critics assert that Jensen has not had the experience in the pro league. Yes, he's developed a bevy of amateurs, but the manager of a big-time professional is different, has been the butt of the criticism.
Well, Jensen had to take more chances than other managers or else not get any matches at all for Layne. He was up against it and has won out. The choices that he accepted have all worked out well for Layne, despite the fact that the opposition was exceedingly tough.
Some claim that Layne must receive expert tutoring in boxing technique, tutorin that an old-timer must give. Well, Jensen has one of the best old-time managers in his corner in Joe Woodeman, former manager of Sam Langford, who should be able to advis properly.
We recall a conversation with Jensen prior to Layne's fight with Walcott in which he stated that he wasn't advancing the easy way. "I'm sure Walcott can be beaten by Rex. I've studied the movies of his previous fights and I know what I'm doing. He continued: "There's too much picking of opponents today. If a man wants to be champ he must prove that right by fighting the best."

Results talk, and Layne is up there, but we would like to see him taught more of the finer points. Continuing to take two to land one is likely to end as Layne himself stated: "A couple more fights like this and I'll be playing marbles."
We were shooting the bull a few days prior to the Satterfield affair. Someone made a crack about how Layne looked too young to be of age.
Joe Woodman said: "He'll be 23 in June." He turned to Layne, who was present. "Right?"
Rex said: "I was born June 7, 1928."
"What time?" someone joshed.
Someone else cut in: "Did you ever do anything else but fight for a living?"
"Sure," laughed Rex. "My father owns a farm in Lewiston and I worked on it until I went into the army."
"Say, Rex," interrupted a bystander, "you're not married, are yuh?"
--------- This goes into a lot of talk about Layne's family and whatever else, so I'll just cut to the end-------
We asked Joe Woodman, who has been close to the youngster, what kind of boy he is.
"A grand lad," said Joe. "He lives a clean life, trains hard and is a good family man-and don't forget... a darn good fighter."
The last time we saw Layne was the day after his fight with Satterfield, when he was in THE RING office with Jensen.
"What's you ambition?" Rex was asked.
"What a question to ask a fighter," he countered. I want to be a champ and some day have a restaurant of my own like Jack Dempsey."
Both Dempsey and Gene Tunney had seen Layne in his fight with Satterfield and were high on him. "Polish up his defense and you have a prospective champ," was their chorus.


.............

[kendom]

And I still say that MOORE, CHARLES, and WALCOTT were GREAT FIGHTERS, you are doing them great disservice, they were just as great as Frazier an Norton ( how can you call Norton better fighter than the great Ezzard Charles ????????) ALI Does'nt count as hr KO'd Foreman,....... just because the average HW was smaller then, at least the very good one's. anyway........... Can't you see that Marciano was smaller than his opposition, it's all relative......... Are we going to denigrate Ali in 90 years when the HW champion is 12 feet tall and weighs 659 KILOGRAMS,..... Oh remember those silly old bastards who used to talk about that Puny Klitschko and Muhammad ALI dude, man my 9 foot tall 8 year old would crush those guys, what with our Nano-Tecnology and Bionic power run bodies............................................ .......lol........................................ ..................---------------- Here is the guy who never ducked an opponent and fought EVERYBODY IN THE DIVISION and Knocked out 42 fighters out of 49 wins,......... He was the HW king as long as he wanted it (4 years and plenty defences, he didn't lose his title in his 2nd or 3rd defence, no he beat everybody, and half of that 49 were as good as Moorer at HW... ...... Foreman is one of my favorite's too, but Rocky was the better fighter P4P,,......... and the QUESTION this thread asked was P4P,... not head to head.

A 39 year old Moore out of the light-heavyweight division is a better win than Ken Norton? A win over Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles, the first who does not deserve to be ranked over Frazier in a serious list and an Ezzard Charles who was 33 and out of his prime weight and gave him all he could handle in 2 fights? are those better than wins over Frazier? I acknowledge Marcianos achievements and im not trying to denigrate him, he would certainly beat Norton and for that matter anyone in Frazier's era, with perhaps one victory in a trilogy over Ali except Foreman, but H2H which they shoud be compared as since they both contended as heavyweights and resume wise I dont see how Marciano beats him.

[Greatest1942]

A 39 year old Moore out of the light-heavyweight division is a better win than Ken Norton? A win over Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles, the first who does not deserve to be ranked over Frazier in a serious list and an Ezzard Charles who was 33 and out of his prime weight and gave him all he could handle in 2 fights? are those better than wins over Frazier? I acknowledge Marcianos achievements and im not trying to denigrate him, he would certainly beat Norton and for that matter anyone in Frazier's era, with perhaps one victory in a trilogy over Ali except Foreman, but H2H which they shoud be compared as since they both contended as heavyweights and resume wise I dont see how Marciano beats him.

Have you seen what a 39 year old Moore did post marciano..Charles was not at his best ..but he was still good.

Walcott was a late bloomer and teh champ...

Norton was still not overly superior even over that version of Charles or Walcott

[jabsRstiff]

Not sure who I'd choose, but I will say something that's rarely said about Foreman...

His performance in the Ali fight was one of the worst I've ever seen. He literally looked like a guy who had just started boxing. So, for all those who cite his blowouts of Norton and Frazier as proof of his awesomeness, the Ali fight showed his lameness.

[McGoorty]

A 39 year old Moore out of the light-heavyweight division is a better win than Ken Norton? A win over Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles, the first who does not deserve to be ranked over Frazier in a serious list and an Ezzard Charles who was 33 and out of his prime weight and gave him all he could handle in 2 fights? are those better than wins over Frazier? I acknowledge Marcianos achievements and im not trying to denigrate him, he would certainly beat Norton and for that matter anyone in Frazier's era, with perhaps one victory in a trilogy over Ali except Foreman, but H2H which they shoud be compared as since they both contended as heavyweights and resume wise I dont see how Marciano beats him.

Styles make fights and Frazier is fantastic, But he was so much shorter and tailor made for Foremans uppercuts, Fraziers head was there for george to hit as he pleased, anyone seeing that fight must be able to see what I mean. The size advantage was way more than between Rocky and Charles. Layne has been mentioned, La Starza was top notch,,,,,,,,, and anyway, just watch Marciano Fight......................... what more do you need to know, surely it isn't fair to penalize Rocky as much,....... it's like you're trying to make 49-0 look like a 29-20,........... surely the fact that the smallest man in his entire division and cleaned them out, SURELY He must be recognised as great........... ......... Surely, sucess in the face of almost impossible odds equals sucess in yje face of certain victory,....I Simply cannot believe that I have to defend Rocky Marciano of all people,,,,,,, a 26 to 13 poll result is somewhat insulting.

[McGoorty]

Not sure who I'd choose, but I will say something that's rarely said about Foreman...

His performance in the Ali fight was one of the worst I've ever seen. He literally looked like a guy who had just started boxing. So, for all those who cite his blowouts of Norton and Frazier as proof of his awesomeness, the Ali fight showed his lameness.

Perfect,....... now why didn't I just say that ???...also, it's funny how so many people are trying to obliterate Rocky from boxing records at least it seems that way,... if you asked any Boxing fan that Foreman was greater than Rocky in 1976,... they would have laughed at you and said ZAIRE,.............................

[fitefanSHO]

Perfect,....... now why didn't I just say that ???...also, it's funny how so many people are trying to obliterate Rocky from boxing records at least it seems that way,... if you asked any Boxing fan that Foreman was greater than Rocky in 1976,... they would have laughed at you and said ZAIRE,.............................

In 1987, George's stated reason for coming back was money for his youth center but I think deep down inside he was also concerned about his legacy and wanted a chance to improve upon it. Clearly he succeeded. Without that comeback, George is forever thought of (and underrated) as a clubbing brawler with limited stamina albeit w/ incredible power. With the comeback, he is thought of by many now as a Top 5 ATG heavyweight. And to think people thought the whole thing was just a big joke and that George was gonna get himself hurt...

[lightsout_finit]

Foremans level of competition was way higher though his career and he did become champ again when he was an old man, So I'd say he achieved more.......

If they were to fight Marciano would get destroyed............