Jack Dempsey or Sam Langford who do you rate as the greater fighter?

[Greatest1942]

i have read hundreds of books and magazines from the early part of the last century and i agree that Sam Langford was a great fighter But Langford in my opinion would not have defeated Jack Dempsey for the heavyweight championship, Sam Langford advertised in newspapers that he would fight any man in the world with the exception of Jim Jeffries, i have seen those adverts in the old papers, also i have watched almost every piece of footage there ever has been of the late Jim Jacobs who in my opinion was the most knowledgable boxing historian who ever lived and Jim Jacobs rated Jack Dempsey as the most ferocious fighting machine of all times, Jacobs talked of all the great fighters from the turn of the century yet none more so than Dempsey and from the footage which is available of both Dempsey & Langford i believe that Dempsey beats him but that is not saying Langford was not an unbelievable fighter, im just saying i dont think he would beat Dempsey who was a completely different kettle of fish to any other fighter, i once read a fantastic article by Gene Tunney in the mid 1970s and Tunney said Dempsey was the greatest fighter who ever laced gloves on.. and don't forget Tunney fought Harry Grebb several times and seen Joe Louis, Marciano, Liston & Muhammad Ali, Gene Tunney would know because he shared the ring with these great fighters.

Yes Sam said he didnt want to fight Jim Jeffries , no one would want to fight the heavy champ giving up 60 pounds in weight.Sam was a lightweight to Welter back then.YOu hold this against him?

Harry Willis, Joe Jeanette, Frank Erne were great too and unlike Tunney they picked Sam as the greatest and they saw upto Joe Louis. Frank Erne picked Sam to beat Jack. After 1919 if they fought I don't see Sam beating Jack as he was near blind, but in 1916 or before I see him cleaning a young Jack up. Not only Jacobs Mike Casey or Mike Hunnicut thinks os too, but Nat who saw them all too thought Sam vs Demps will be a very close affair and didnt call the fight. Fireman Jim Flynn a common opponent said Sam hit harder and also said he was the best. So while you can give me hundreds of opinions of others I can give you some too. And I think the person I respect most was Hank Klapnan. Though I dont subscribe to some of his views, same with Jacobs. Yes Jack could beat Sam, I have Jack in the top 10 heavy but there is no need to belittle Sam, he achieved a lot. I am quite sure you read a lot, some of your posts are great, but might I suggest you to read Clay Moyles book on Sam? Its a good read.

GreatA I am sorry if I misunderstood you. The way you worded it, I thought you were stating your own opinions. I am quite sure you know what is there to know, you are a very good poster.

[sonnyboyx2]

i have never tried to "Belittle" Sam

[sonnyboyx2]

Yes Sam said he didnt want to fight Jim Jeffries , no one would want to fight the heavy champ giving up 60 pounds in weight.Sam was a lightweight to Welter back then.YOu hold this against him?

Harry Willis, Joe Jeanette, Frank Erne were great too and unlike Tunney they picked Sam as the greatest and they saw upto Joe Louis. Frank Erne picked Sam to beat Jack. After 1919 if they fought I don't see Sam beating Jack as he was near blind, but in 1916 or before I see him cleaning a young Jack up. Not only Jacobs Mike Casey or Mike Hunnicut thinks os too, but Nat who saw them all too thought Sam vs Demps will be a very close affair and didnt call the fight. Fireman Jim Flynn a common opponent said Sam hit harder and also said he was the best. So while you can give me hundreds of opinions of others I can give you some too. And I think the person I respect most was Hank Klapnan. Though I dont subscribe to some of his views, same with Jacobs. Yes Jack could beat Sam, I have Jack in the top 10 heavy but there is no need to belittle Sam, he achieved a lot. I am quite sure you read a lot, some of your posts are great, but might I suggest you to read Clay Moyles book on Sam? Its a good read.

GreatA I am sorry if I misunderstood you. The way you worded it, I thought you were stating your own opinions. I am quite sure you know what is there to know, you are a very good poster.

Here is an interesting little piece for you with a quote from Jack Blackburn who fought Sam Langford 7 times:

http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?...vs+grebb&hl=en

[Zizou3]

Head-to-Head Dempsey would take Langford's head off. this is no contest.....PWNDE

[Greatest1942]

Here is an interesting little piece for you with a quote from Jack Blackburn who fought Sam Langford 7 times:

http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?...vs+grebb&hl=en

Surprise Surprise I read it before Sonny.

But still excuse me what did Jack Blackburn say out of the ordinary there? Jack Blackburn was a great lightweight and no wonder he fought on equal terms with Sam. But pray what is your point there? He hit Sam hard, fought him well...great..He fought Joe Gans extremely well too...Gans as you know was Great.Blackburn was a great fighter...Do you know what he told Joe Louis?" Sam Langford was the best of the black fighters of the past". Well you know Jim Flynn said that Sam could hit ( I repeat this so that you digest it) hit harder than Jack...he fought both...Joe Jeanette thought Sam was the best and would have beaten Johnson had he been given the chance. Blackburn reportedly once sparred with Johnson, and you know Jack Johnson could not quite you know , ok uh...I Leave it to you to find out the rest. This story he repeated to Louis. Hint for you.

Mate when someone questions like what did Sam Langford ever do? Or Why did he duck Jack Johnson or simply state that he fought Jack Johnson multiple times, you have to ask is the motive simply to belittle Sam?

Never mind I am done with this thread...mate I am a big Jack Dempsey fan and did vote him as the #1 in a short ring, and have him in my top 10 heavy...But just I see Sam p4p better..You have yours choice, just I didn't kindof liked your comments as explained above.Have a great time

[sonnyboyx2]

Surprise Surprise I read it before Sonny.

But still excuse me what did Jack Blackburn say out of the ordinary there? Jack Blackburn was a great lightweight and no wonder he fought on equal terms with Sam. But pray what is your point there? He hit Sam hard, fought him well...great..He fought Joe Gans extremely well too...Gans as you know was Great.Blackburn was a great fighter...Do you know what he told Joe Louis?" Sam Langford was the best of the black fighters of the past". Well you know Jim Flynn said that Sam could hit ( I repeat this so that you digest it) hit harder than Jack...he fought both...Joe Jeanette thought Sam was the best and would have beaten Johnson had he been given the chance. Blackburn reportedly once sparred with Johnson, and you know Jack Johnson could not quite you know , ok uh...I Leave it to you to find out the rest. This story he repeated to Louis. Hint for you.

Mate when someone questions like what did Sam Langford ever do? Or Why did he duck Jack Johnson or simply state that he fought Jack Johnson multiple times, you have to ask is the motive simply to belittle Sam?

Never mind I am done with this thread...mate I am a big Jack Dempsey fan and did vote him as the #1 in a short ring, and have him in my top 10 heavy...But just I see Sam p4p better..You have yours choice, just I didn't kindof liked your comments as explained above.Have a great time

you seem to think i have an agenda against Sam Langford yet you cannot be further from the truth.

[StarshipTrooper]

I don't think Langford, as great as he is, would have beaten Dempsey. To my mind that's simply a "bridge too far". P4P Langford is the greater fighter but let's face it he was a Middleweight who was beating Heavies. I don't see him beating ATG level Heavies though.....I think he'd give them a damn good fight like he did Johnson but in the end he lost to Johnson. Langford is a top-5 p4p ATG fighter but beating ATG level Heavyweights is just asking a bit too much in my view.

Poet

[Greatest1942]

you seem to think i have an agenda against Sam Langford yet you cannot be further from the truth.

I just thought some of your comments were not quite right...We all make mistakes and its understandable, or better we all have our convictions.

So I might not agree with some of your observations, but my friend I don't believe you have any malice. IF I have conveyed it in any way, I didn't mean that Sonny.You can take my word on that.

[Greatest1942]

I don't think Langford, as great as he is, would have beaten Dempsey. To my mind that's simply a "bridge too far". P4P Langford is the greater fighter but let's face it he was a Middleweight who was beating Heavies. I don't see him beating ATG level Heavies though.....I think he'd give them a damn good fight like he did Johnson but in the end he lost to Johnson. Langford is a top-5 p4p ATG fighter but beating ATG level Heavyweights is just asking a bit too much in my view.

Poet

When Langford lost to Johnson he weighed 156lbs...so right you are he was a middle and although he did beat some heavies, ATG heavies are far from his realm. But the 1909-1914 Langford weighed around 175 pounds and often 180 Poet and I believe was quite capable of derailing Jack Johnson...by the by even though he was 5.6 or 5.7 he had a half inch reach advantage over Johnson!!! You know I sincerely believe Sam would have beaten Jack Johnson...Against Dempsey I am not so sure...But he did beat ATG heavies Harry Willis,Sam McVea who were ATG heavies whatever way you slice it. So I see him as live money(the 1909-14 Langford ) as against any heavy.

[sonnyboyx2]

When Langford lost to Johnson he weighed 156lbs...so right you are he was a middle and although he did beat some heavies, ATG heavies are far from his realm. But the 1909-1914 Langford weighed around 175 pounds and often 180 Poet and I believe was quite capable of derailing Jack Johnson...by the by even though he was 5.6 or 5.7 he had a half inch reach advantage over Johnson!!! You know I sincerely believe Sam would have beaten Jack Johnson...Against Dempsey I am not so sure...But he did beat ATG heavies Harry Willis,Sam McVea who were ATG heavies whatever way you slice it. So I see him as live money(the 1909-14 Langford ) as against any heavy.

i don't rate Harry Wills or Sam McVea as ATG Heavies, good yes but not ATGs