More Accomplished HW Lennox Lewis Or Joe Frazier?

[StarshipTrooper]

Hasim Rahman is the worst champion in history..i suggest you watch Holmes vs Bey

The Bey fight was where sports writers started to talk about Larry being on the slide.

Poet

[General Zod]

Hide was a 2 time WBO champion and his fights was shown `live on UK TV.. Hide repeatedly called out Lewis as did the British press..

Please tell me Herbie Hides three best wins at HW? He got wiped out by Bowe and later on Vitali K. Why dont you post a link to an article about it?

Tyson vs Holyfield was a $30 million payday for Tyson.. No-one gave Lewis a chance of lasting one round against Tyson, Lewis had not even lasted 2rds against one of Tyson`s sparring partners in McCall... Holyfield was the bigger fight yet you are twisting it into claiming Tyson was `afraid`

Holyfield was considered shot at the time, he looked terrible in the Bobby Cryz fight, he also had no belts. The Holyfield fight was about Tyson fighting another easy opponent. Why are you bringing up the McCall fight? In what way does that effect anything here? Please tell me one serious opponent Tyson fought after he left prison, who was not a paper champ or considered shot like Holyfield was?

Ruiz was a novice when caught with the first punch of the fight by Tua...he fought his way to be No1 contender over the next 4yrs... The source for the sparring is the Boxing News weekly ****zine.

It doesnt matter if he was a novice or not he didnt start trying to hook and hold until after that fight which puts your original post out by 2 years.

You are going to have to be more specific with the source so I can try to look it up as well

David Tua wanted no rematch with Ruiz in 2000

Irrelevant to the discussion

you say in your opinion Holyfield should have got the nod in their 3rd fight.. just like IMO Holyfield was a clear winner in his 2nd fight with Lewis as well as the opinion of most ringside observers.

Irrelevant who cares it is a side issue at best

Lewis dumped the belt rather than fight Chris Byrd on the advice of King...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...xing_champions

Lewis relinquished the IBF title upon receiving payment of $1 million (US) by promoter Don King,

from your link he was paid 1m to give it up, not the same as on advice from king

It was Lewis not Bowe who made the demands and priced himself out of it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Dont you have anything other than a vid from Bowe? How about a article from a more neutral source?

Lewis turned down an offer to fight Bowe in
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/199...ewman-dan-duva

If you notice that article does not ask Lewis what he reasons were, so you are judging him on the word of Newman alone. Hardly objective. Why should Lewis of fought him at that stage after the way Bowe ducked him when the fight was originally to be made?

Why not believe what Bowe is saying.. is he known for telling lies?

.
Wasnt Bowe defence for kidnapping his wife and kids that he had brain damage? And now he is fighting claiming he has no damage? Didnt he also pull out of a fight with Ruddock claiming to be "sick", then went on to fight that South African guy instead?

.. or is Lewis known for telling lies like when he told the boxing world he would fight Vitali in a rematch yet dragged it out for 12 months+ then announced he was quitting.

Lewis lying about Vitali means that Bowe told the truth years prior and that logic makes sense to you?

The Link for Cory Sanders is in the Lewis vs McCall fight program

Who has Cory Saunders beat? Who are his three best wins? he was a nobody back then as well

[CarlosG815]

While you encourage others to "watch it again",why don't you try actually watching it for the first time?

I've seen every Frazier fight that I've had available to me and close to all film related to him. Before you assume I haven't watched it, why don't you watch it because it's clear you've never seen it, or once again you're the only person in the world to claim Frazier got his ass beat. It was a draw if anything and could have been given to either fighter.

I'm not saying it was a gift but Frazier could have gotten the decision just as easily and there would be no controversy.

[BennyST]

Frazier lost twice to Ali & twice to Foreman.. he very nearly beat Muhammad Ali 3-0.. Foreman was a `Monster the likes of which we have never seen since`.. Frazier beat some great fighters during his reign in : Bonavena (twice), Quarry (twice), Ellis, Chuvalo, Mathis, Bugner, Mathis, Foster, Machen and many more.

Lewis fought a bunch of has-beens who was all on the slide and at the tail-end of their careers, along with a couple of over-hyped bums like Grant, Mavrovic, Botha, Butler, Fortune, Ruddock (damaged goods), Tucker (junkie), Tua, Bruno, Akinwande, Morrison (HIV), Jackson.. Lewis got poleaxed by Rahman & McCall two journeymen, The referee could have counted to 100 without Lewis beating the count..

Frazier was floored 6 times in 2rds by the Monsterous Foreman before being stopped on his feet, which showed the toughness and ability to take punches from the sports hardest ever puncher..

Rahman & McCall never again in their careers did they poleaxe an opponent in the way that Lewis went down, which is a clear sign that it was not the power of their punch but the weak whiskers of Lennox Lewis... Lewis always avoided big punchers his whole career in guys like, Whitherspoon, Bonecrusher, Sanders, Wlad Klitschko, Hide, Cooper, Bowe, Tyson (in 96)..

Smokin Joe Frazier is rated in the Top 10 of every Boxing historian & commentator who ever compiled a list.. Lennox Lewis barely makes anyones Top 20

He was up before ten both times. Out of it, but up.

[Jim Jeffries]

He was up before ten both times. Out of it, but up.

I don't know, it looks to me like Lewis is still on all fours at 10.



But yeah, his description that they could've counted to a 100 is incorrect, he was on the verge of getting up. In the McCall fight, he beat the count with a couple seconds to spare, but like you said, was finished.

[Snopkins]

I've seen every Frazier fight that I've had available to me and close to all film related to him. Before you assume I haven't watched it, why don't you watch it because it's clear you've never seen it, or once again you're the only person in the world to claim Frazier got his ass beat. It was a draw if anything and could have been given to either fighter.

I'm not saying it was a gift but Frazier could have gotten the decision just as easily and there would be no controversy.

He didn't "beat that ass" nor did he attempt to.

Are you ******, or just blind?


Only a moron who doesn't have a clue how to score a fight would give frazier more than four rounds.I won't ask for your scorecard as you obviously have never even seen this fight.



"ole smokey" was decisively outboxed.

[sonnyboyx2]

Please tell me Herbie Hides three best wins at HW? He got wiped out by Bowe and later on Vitali K. Why dont you post a link to an article about it?

Holyfield was considered shot at the time, he looked terrible in the Bobby Cryz fight, he also had no belts. The Holyfield fight was about Tyson fighting another easy opponent. Why are you bringing up the McCall fight? In what way does that effect anything here? Please tell me one serious opponent Tyson fought after he left prison, who was not a paper champ or considered shot like Holyfield was?

It doesnt matter if he was a novice or not he didnt start trying to hook and hold until after that fight which puts your original post out by 2 years.

You are going to have to be more specific with the source so I can try to look it up as well

Irrelevant to the discussion

Irrelevant who cares it is a side issue at best


from your link he was paid 1m to give it up, not the same as on advice from king

Dont you have anything other than a vid from Bowe? How about a article from a more neutral source?

If you notice that article does not ask Lewis what he reasons were, so you are judging him on the word of Newman alone. Hardly objective. Why should Lewis of fought him at that stage after the way Bowe ducked him when the fight was originally to be made?
.
Wasnt Bowe defence for kidnapping his wife and kids that he had brain damage? And now he is fighting claiming he has no damage? Didnt he also pull out of a fight with Ruddock claiming to be "sick", then went on to fight that South African guy instead?

Lewis lying about Vitali means that Bowe told the truth years prior and that logic makes sense to you?

Who has Cory Saunders beat? Who are his three best wins? he was a nobody back then as well

nothing to do with a fighters best wins.. Hide was WBO champion while Lewis was champion of nothing, Hide vs Lewis was a huge fight in the UK regardless of who would have won... But Lewis never fancied the task of the then undefeated Hide..

Holyfield did not look good against Czyz yet he won and was far from `Shot` like you claim.. Lewis had just been poleaxed by McCall and was thought of as nothing more than a first round `kill for Tyson... No-one wanted to see Tyson vs Lewis in 96.. Tyson vs Holyfield was a huge fight.

it doesn`t matter that Ruiz was a novice you say...what a load of rubbish... you are the biggest Lewis nuthugger i have ever came across, you twist and contort the truth around to fit your imaginary fairytale story of him.

irrelevant you say if most thought Holyfield won the rematch with Lewis... yet you post that you thought he should have got the 3rd fight with Ruiz... so its ok for you to make claims but not me .

The link i supplied you about Don King getting Lewis to avoid Byrd says:
"Lewis relinquished the IBF title upon receiving payment of $1 million (US) by promoter Don King"..Its the same thing, do you think King just gave him $1 million and said nothing?

The video from Bowe is all you or anyother person needs.. "Its straight from the horses mouth"... you will likely now claim Bowe is lying....
Show me a link from Lewis and i may believe it.

you say:......If you notice that article does not ask Lewis what he reasons were, so you are judging him on the word of Newman alone. Hardly objective. Why should Lewis of fought him at that stage after the way Bowe ducked him when the fight was originally to be made?
what a laugh.. you get funnier by the day, it was more than three times as much money as Lewis had ever fought for in his entire career, Lewis was boasting to the English press that Bowe was afraid of him.. Rock Newman made the offer `Live` on BBC Sportsnight programme which was introduced by Desmond Lynam.. Lewis turned it down, Yet you being a huge Lewis nuthugger cannot accept what i am putting infront of you, you cannot accept that it was not how you think it was...and when it is right there in front of you that Lewis was stripped of both the WBA & IBF belts for refusing to fight the No1 contenders in Ruiz & Byrd, you say, " But Lewis woulda beat both them, or who wanted to see him fight them"... The answer is every boxing fan in the USA, and with Lewis refusing, it is why Lewis is reviled and not given credit in the USA...Rid**** Bowe on that video clearly tells how Lewis deliberately avoided him, yet you blindly wont accept it, even claiming the guy is "brian damaged" so is talking through a hole in his head..

Cory Sanders was chief support on the Lewis v McCall bill, so i suggest you get in touch with Frank Maloney and ask him why Sanders was the chief support on that bill because in your opinion he has beat no one..

i look forward to you supplying me with a link to prove Lewis did not avoid Bowe like Bowe claimed he did in that video..

Lennox Lewis was a British/Canadian thing, his team spewed out propaganda to the press to build up Lewis as a fighter yet they knew that he was not up too fighting the very best due to his glass chin which proved his downfall on two occasions, yet the propaganda continued even after every fight-fan in the world seen him spread-eagled on the canvas by an unknown journeyman in Hasim Rahman, they claimed, "Oceans 11, not focused, lucky punch, not acclimatized, did not train correct, etc etc" and the nuthuggers ****** it in and believe it even to this day.

you must believe there are fairies at the bottom of the garden..

[Mersey]

Lennox acheived more. If Frazier was fighting in Lennox's era, it may be the other way round.

[General Zod]

nothing to do with a fighters best wins.. Hide was WBO champion while Lewis was champion of nothing, Hide vs Lewis was a huge fight in the UK regardless of who would have won... But Lewis never fancied the task of the then undefeated Hide..

Early 90's
Hide beat Bentt to win the WBO belt: 1994-03-19
Hide would lose it on his 1st defence in :1995-03-11

Lewis would fight McCall and lose to McCall : 1994-09-24
He would take a year off, change trainers then face Lionel Butler in a WBC elimation bout in: 1995-05-13
late 90's
Hide would win the WBO belt after beating tucker in: 1997-06-28
he would lose it to Vitali.K in:1999-06-26

Lewis would regain the WBC belt by beating McCall in:1997-02-07
and defend it again against HOlyfield: 1999-11-13

So when was this bout viable according to you?
Also you forgot to mention this:

During the 1990s, the WBC did not allow its champions to engage in unification bouts with WBO champions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Boxing_Council

Holyfield did not look good against Czyz yet he won and was far from `Shot` like you claim.. Lewis had just been poleaxed by McCall and was thought of as nothing more than a first round `kill for Tyson... No-one wanted to see Tyson vs Lewis in 96.. Tyson vs Holyfield was a huge fight.

It doesnt matter if Lewis had been koed by McCall in 1994, he was still Tyson's mandatory and Tyson was obliged to face him. Holyfield was suffering from heart problems during the Moorer fight, which he lost, he would also look less than 100% in the Bowe fight, where he got koed. He struggled badly with Bobby Czyz who was at best a fringe contender. Going into the Tyson fight he was 2-2 in his last 4 fights, does that look to you like a fighter on the rise or on the slide?

When Holyfield and Tyson signed to fight there was no demand for the fight because Holyfield was considered finished at the time. In fact Evander had to get medical clearance from the Mayo clinic before the fight could be sanctioned by the Nevada Athletic Commission because the prevailing thought was Tyson wouldn't just beat Holyfield, but might possibly injure him. To sell the first fight many cable companies across America offered a pay per-round package for those who purchased the fight so the fans wouldn't feel ripped off if the fight only lasted a couple rounds. When the fight turned out to be one of the better heavyweight fights of the decade won by the 12-1 underdog Holyfield, the rematch was made.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxin...der-holyfield/
Does this sound to you like Holyfield was considered a legit threat or a fighter on the slide?

it doesn`t matter that Ruiz was a novice you say...what a load of rubbish... you are the biggest Lewis nuthugger i have ever came across, you twist and contort the truth around to fit your imaginary fairytale story of him.

Ruiz wouldnt start his "holding and hitting style" until after he got wiped out by Tua in 1996-03-15. So how could his hook and hold style give Lewis fits in 1994 when he wouldnt start doing it until 2 years later?

The link i supplied you about Don King getting Lewis to avoid Byrd says:
"Lewis relinquished the IBF title upon receiving payment of $1 million (US) by promoter Don King"..Its the same thing, do you think King just gave him $1 million and said nothing?

No it is not.
Are these two statements equivalent to you?:
1: please vacate your belt
2: I will give you 1m if you vacate your belt.

The video from Bowe is all you or anyother person needs.. "Its straight from the horses mouth"... you will likely now claim Bowe is lying....
Show me a link from Lewis and i may believe it.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6794,6164845
Rock Newman initial offer to Lewis was a 90/10 split
It was Maloney who offered Bowe a 75/25 split in Bowes favour, which Newman rejected.

Also:

A person familiar with the talks, however, said that Newman's offer was not quite what it seemed. One condition of the proposal, the person said, is that Dan Duva, Lewis's promoter, surrender his options to participate in Bowe's next three fights. Duva's share in a Bowe-Lewis fight, about $5 million, would have to come from Lewis's purse, not from Newman's.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/sp...l?pagewanted=1

what a laugh.. you get funnier by the day, it was more than three times as much money as Lewis had ever fought for in his entire career, Lewis was boasting to the English press that Bowe was afraid of him.

That offer last February, rejected by Lewis' financial advisers, was for a reported $10 million, but came with the addendum that Lewis must first relinquish his WBC belt.

But the biggest stumbling block in reaching an agreement remains Duva, who has a three-fight option on Bowe, giving him a percentage of his pay-per-view earnings.

"I don't owe Dan Duva anything," Newman said. "I'm giving his guy [Lewis] $12 million, and they can divide it up any way they like. But he's not also going to dip into Bowe's pot at the same time. But if I were Lewis, I'd take this offer in a New York minute."

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/199...ewman-dan-duva

A person familiar with the talks, however, said that Newman's offer was not quite what it seemed. One condition of the proposal, the person said, is that Dan Duva, Lewis's promoter, surrender his options to participate in Bowe's next three fights. Duva's share in a Bowe-Lewis fight, about $5 million, would have to come from Lewis's purse, not from Newman's.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/sp...l?pagewanted=1

..and when it is right there in front of you that Lewis was stripped of both the WBA & IBF belts for refusing to fight the No1 contenders in Ruiz & Byrd, you say, " But Lewis woulda beat both them, or who wanted to see him fight them"... The answer is every boxing fan in the USA, and with Lewis refusing, it is why Lewis is reviled and not given credit in the USA...Rid**** Bowe on that video clearly tells how Lewis deliberately avoided him, yet you blindly wont accept it, even claiming the guy is "brian damaged" so is talking through a hole in his head..

Three months after that, assault and battery on his wife.[13] Bowe then was convicted of kidnapping his wife and children after Bowe went to his wife's Charlotte, North Carolina home and threatened her with a knife, handcuffs, duct tape and pepper spray. He forced her and their children into a vehicle and set out for his Fort Washington, Maryland, home.[14] Bowe was initially sentenced to only 30 days as a result of a lenient sentence due to brain damage claimed by Bowe's defense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rid****...Legal_Troubles
Bowe is clearly brain damaged, listen to the guy talk.

You think there was a public demand for Lewis vs Ruiz or Lewis vs Byrd? lol

Cory Sanders was chief support on the Lewis v McCall bill, so i suggest you get in touch with Frank Maloney and ask him why Sanders was the chief support on that bill because in your opinion he has beat no one..

Lewis gets wiped out in 2 rounds against McCall, gets a shot at a WBC eliminator match but he should of turned that down to fight Corrie Saunders. Why should he of done that at the time in his career according to you?

i look forward to you supplying me with a link to prove Lewis did not avoid Bowe like Bowe claimed he did in that video..

Read this newspaper article
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6794,6164845

Lennox Lewis was a British/Canadian thing, his team spewed out propaganda to the press to build up Lewis as a fighter yet they knew that he was not up too fighting the very best due to his glass chin which proved his downfall on two occasions, yet the propaganda continued even after every fight-fan in the world seen him spread-eagled on the canvas by an unknown journeyman in Hasim Rahman, they claimed, "Oceans 11, not focused, lucky punch, not acclimatized, did not train correct, etc etc" and the nuthuggers ****** it in and believe it even to this day.
you must believe there are fairies at the bottom of the garden..

Dude seriously lol at this, getting wiped out twice is not equivalent to having a glass jaw. If he had such a bad jaw dont you think he would of lost more fights by ko? Dont you also think its strange that you are hating on a fighter that retired in 2003?

[sonnyboyx2]

Early 90's
Hide beat Bentt to win the WBO belt: 1994-03-19
Hide would lose it on his 1st defence in :1995-03-11

Lewis would fight McCall and lose to McCall : 1994-09-24
He would take a year off, change trainers then face Lionel Butler in a WBC elimation bout in: 1995-05-13
late 90's
Hide would win the WBO belt after beating tucker in: 1997-06-28
he would lose it to Vitali.K in:1999-06-26

Lewis would regain the WBC belt by beating McCall in:1997-02-07
and defend it again against HOlyfield: 1999-11-13

So when was this bout viable according to you?
Also you forgot to mention this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Boxing_Council


It doesnt matter if Lewis had been koed by McCall in 1994, he was still Tyson's mandatory and Tyson was obliged to face him. Holyfield was suffering from heart problems during the Moorer fight, which he lost, he would also look less than 100% in the Bowe fight, where he got koed. He struggled badly with Bobby Czyz who was at best a fringe contender. Going into the Tyson fight he was 2-2 in his last 4 fights, does that look to you like a fighter on the rise or on the slide?


http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxin...der-holyfield/
Does this sound to you like Holyfield was considered a legit threat or a fighter on the slide?

Ruiz wouldnt start his "holding and hitting style" until after he got wiped out by Tua in 1996-03-15. So how could his hook and hold style give Lewis fits in 1994 when he wouldnt start doing it until 2 years later?

No it is not.
Are these two statements equivalent to you?:
1: please vacate your belt
2: I will give you 1m if you vacate your belt.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6794,6164845
Rock Newman initial offer to Lewis was a 90/10 split
It was Maloney who offered Bowe a 75/25 split in Bowes favour, which Newman rejected.

Also:

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/sp...l?pagewanted=1





http://articles.baltimoresun.com/199...ewman-dan-duva

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/sp...l?pagewanted=1



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rid****...Legal_Troubles
Bowe is clearly brain damaged, listen to the guy talk.

You think there was a public demand for Lewis vs Ruiz or Lewis vs Byrd? lol

Lewis gets wiped out in 2 rounds against McCall, gets a shot at a WBC eliminator match but he should of turned that down to fight Corrie Saunders. Why should he of done that at the time in his career according to you?

Read this newspaper article
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6794,6164845

Dude seriously lol at this, getting wiped out twice is not equivalent to having a glass jaw. If he had such a bad jaw dont you think he would of lost more fights by ko? Dont you also think its strange that you are hating on a fighter that retired in 2003?

Hide offered Lewis repeated oppotunities to fight for his WBO title in late 94 to mid 95 all on BBC TV, his promoter Barry Hearns made legit offers to Lewis and all was turned down, so they went for another big fish in Rid**** Bowe.

You say it dones not matter if Lewis had been KOd in 94 he was still Tysons mandatory.... just Like Ruiz, Byrd & Vitali was Lewis mandatories yet that means nothing in your eyes..

To claim Holyfield was `shot` is ridiculous.. The guy knocked **** out of Tyson and was far from what you call a shot fighter.... take a look at the PPV numbers for Tyson vs Holyfield (1) against the Lewis vs McCall (2) fight...you will realize your talking ****e.

Ruiz always had a hold & hit style, i watched him live` beat Julius Francis in Bristol 1994..

i told you Lewis vacated the title as King gave him $1 million... Lewis would have made at least $6 million for fighting Byrd.. Lewis refused to do business with King all his career, but because King could help him out of fighting Byrd, Lewis jumped at the chance.

i gave you a link on the Rock Newman offer of $12 million to fight Bowe and i will stick by that, i also seen Newman on BBC TV make the same offer... my eyes did not deceive me..

Bowe was not brain damaged during the 1990s are you saying the guy is incapable of talking?

yes i think there was a huge demand for Lewis to defend against the top contenders in Ruiz & Byrd, i dont think anyone wanted to see him duck them and fight Grant & Boths... Ruiz & Byrd would both KO Grant & Botha.

Who said anything about Lewis should have turned down McCall & fought Sanders?.... McCall was only days out of a drug rehab when he fought Lewis (2) it was a disgrace and cannot be considered as a legit victory