Muhammad Ali vs Benny Leonard - Who Ranks Higher P4P?

[The Beatles]

Take you're pick......feel free to give you're opinions on the fighter you think is better and if you want you can state you're reasons for you're choice
ps...JAB is a zionist and is therefore banned for giving his opinions in this thread because of his blatant bias agenda

[Obama]

B. Leonard. Better resume, more complete fighter, & cleaner fighter.

Ali is better than the other Leonard however.

[Joey Giardello]

B. Leonard. Better resume, more complete fighter, & cleaner fighter.

Ali is better than the other Leonard however.

better resume? are you jokeing? ali could have the best resume of all time!

[Marcov]

Muhammad Ali! He had several HOF careers squeezed into one.

[Obama]

better resume? are you jokeing? ali could have the best resume of all time!

I suggest you learn more about Leonard's resume, which is far from the best resume ever, but still narrowly better than Ali's. The man found meaningful success at a world class level from Featherweight to Welterweight, and here's the short on his career, a piece I put together some time last year:

-------------------------------------------

Benny Leonard fought from 1911 to 1932 through boxing's apex of popularity, the roaring twenties. After Joe Gans reigned supreme in the Lightweight division for over a decade, transitioning between the 19th and 20th centuries, there wasn't another Lightweight nearly as dominant until the arrival of Benny Leonard. Leonard had the alias of the "Ghetto Wizard", and was described by some as "the brainiest fighter of them all." While these descriptions don't seem to go hand in hand, let us recall the time period and the fact that Leonard was Jewish. The ghetto then and the ghetto now meant something quite different.


Although Leonard fought in the 20s, it was far from consecutive. He retired in early 1925 and stayed out of the prize ring from mid 1924 to late 1931. Going by newspaper decisions, before retiring Leonard had amassed a record of 165 wins, 18 losses, 10 draws, and 4 no decisions. After coming back in 1931 he would actually only lose 1 of his next 20 bouts, his last bout against hall of famer Jimmy McLarnin. McLarnin aside however, the only other comeback opposition who was remotely credible was top 10 rated Paulie Walker, who had a record of 20-11-6 and had lost 4 of his last 6 fights at the time. But BEFORE his retirement, Leonard had beat the following hall of famers:


Lew Tendler (x2)
Johnny Dundee (x3)
Jack Britton (x2)
Johnny Kilbane
Freddie Welsh (x2)
Rocky Kansas (x4)


He also drew with hall of famer and fellow multi-divisional great Ted 'Kid' Lewis according to the New York times. Other publications scored it for both fighters, but the title could only change hands on a knock out regardless.


Despite being a natural Lightweight, Leonard was able to cut down for a few Featherweight bouts early in his career (a teenager at the time). His most notable opponent was contender Patsy Kline. At Lightweight, Leonard met the vast majority of his hall of fame opposition. This is also where Leonard established himself as Champion for over 7 years, retiring with the title at only 28 years of age. As a Welterweight, Jack Britton was Leonard's only hall of fame conquest, a man he met a total of 3 times in the ring, defeating him in the first two bouts. Unfortunately for Leonard, not until the third meeting with Britton was a Welterweight title at stake. Leonard would lose this bout by a controversial disqualification. Although meeting Welterweights like Britton from time to time during his reign as a Lightweight, Leonard was never recorded to weigh over 140 lbs prior to coming out of retirement. Also, between 1914 and his very last fight in 1932, Leonard had actually beaten every man who had ever beat him. Even ignoring his return to the ring, that's a 10 year accomplishment which included roughly 140 bouts. Needless to say, Benny Leonard is clearly one of the all time greats.

[Joey Giardello]

I suggest you learn more about Leonard's resume, which is far from the best resume ever, but still narrowly better than Ali's. The man found meaningful success at a world class level from Featherweight to Welterweight, and here's the short on his career, a piece I put together some time last year:

-------------------------------------------

Benny Leonard fought from 1911 to 1932 through boxing's apex of popularity, the roaring twenties. After Joe Gans reigned supreme in the Lightweight division for over a decade, transitioning between the 19th and 20th centuries, there wasn't another Lightweight nearly as dominant until the arrival of Benny Leonard. Leonard had the alias of the "Ghetto Wizard", and was described by some as "the brainiest fighter of them all." While these descriptions don't seem to go hand in hand, let us recall the time period and the fact that Leonard was Jewish. The ghetto then and the ghetto now meant something quite different.


Although Leonard fought in the 20s, it was far from consecutive. He retired in early 1925 and stayed out of the prize ring from mid 1924 to late 1931. Going by newspaper decisions, before retiring Leonard had amassed a record of 165 wins, 18 losses, 10 draws, and 4 no decisions. After coming back in 1931 he would actually only lose 1 of his next 20 bouts, his last bout against hall of famer Jimmy McLarnin. McLarnin aside however, the only other comeback opposition who was remotely credible was top 10 rated Paulie Walker, who had a record of 20-11-6 and had lost 4 of his last 6 fights at the time. But BEFORE his retirement, Leonard had beat the following hall of famers:


Lew Tendler (x2)
Johnny Dundee (x3)
Jack Britton (x2)
Johnny Kilbane
Freddie Welsh (x2)
Rocky Kansas (x4)


He also drew with hall of famer and fellow multi-divisional great Ted 'Kid' Lewis according to the New York times. Other publications scored it for both fighters, but the title could only change hands on a knock out regardless.


Despite being a natural Lightweight, Leonard was able to cut down for a few Featherweight bouts early in his career (a teenager at the time). His most notable opponent was contender Patsy Kline. At Lightweight, Leonard met the vast majority of his hall of fame opposition. This is also where Leonard established himself as Champion for over 7 years, retiring with the title at only 28 years of age. As a Welterweight, Jack Britton was Leonard's only hall of fame conquest, a man he met a total of 3 times in the ring, defeating him in the first two bouts. Unfortunately for Leonard, not until the third meeting with Britton was a Welterweight title at stake. Leonard would lose this bout by a controversial disqualification. Although meeting Welterweights like Britton from time to time during his reign as a Lightweight, Leonard was never recorded to weigh over 140 lbs prior to coming out of retirement. Also, between 1914 and his very last fight in 1932, Leonard had actually beaten every man who had ever beat him. Even ignoring his return to the ring, that's a 10 year accomplishment which included roughly 140 bouts. Needless to say, Benny Leonard is clearly one of the all time greats.

benny had a great career and a great resume but it is not as good as ali's who beat the better fighters in liston, archie moore, henry cooper, williams, patterson, foreman, frazier, norton, shavers, jimmy young, ron lyle, bob foster, jerry quary, mac foster, jimmy ellis, oscar natalio bonavena, that right there could be the greatest resume of all time!!!

[Obama]

benny had a great career and a great resume but it is not as good as ali's who beat the better fighters in liston, archie moore, henry cooper, williams, patterson, foreman, frazier, norton, shavers, jimmy young, ron lyle, bob foster, jerry quary, mac foster, jimmy ellis, oscar natalio bonavena, that right there could be the greatest resume of all time!!!

1) Don't ignore the prime status of those fighters.

2) Don't ignore Ali's questionable victories, losses, and struggles against those fighter.

3) It's really not even close to a SRR type of resume. You just dropped like 16 names, past it HW versions of Bob Foster and Archie Moore being the worst of the lot. If you rate guys like that, then you'd have to rate at least 60 of the fighters Robinson beat.

[Joey Giardello]

1) Don't ignore the prime status of those fighters.

2) Don't ignore Ali's questionable victories, losses, and struggles against those fighter.

3) It's really not even close to a SRR type of resume. You just dropped like 16 names, past it HW versions of Bob Foster and Archie Moore being the worst of the lot. If you rate guys like that, then you'd have to rate at least 60 of the fighters Robinson beat.

Ron Lyle, Sonny Liston, Earnie Shavers, Jerry Quarry, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton and Henry Cooper were all in there prime or very close to there prime when ali beat them, and you say ali's resume is not even close to robinson's? you are talking nothing but ****

[Obama]

Ron Lyle, Sonny Liston, Earnie Shavers, Jerry Quarry, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton and Henry Cooper were all in there prime or very close to there prime when ali beat them, and you say ali's resume is not even close to robinson's? you are talking nothing but ****

If Ali was past his prime when Frazier beat him, Frazier was certainly past his prime when Ali beat him. Ali even acknowledged Frazier wasn't the same fighter before the two stepped in the ring again.

Liston clearly was past it. It's not even remotely debatable. Well, if there is any debate, it's between whether he was just past it or he threw the fights altogether.

Henry Cooper is a B level fighter. Robinson beat 20 fighters on Cooper's level in his career. I'll even list them:

Pete Lello, Norman Rubio (x2), Reuben Shank, California Jackie Wilson (x2), Ralph Zannelli, Jimmy McDaniels, O'Neill Bell, Joe Curcio, Cecil Hudson I, Artie Levine, Georgie Abrams, Bernard Docusen, Don Lee (x2), Earl Turner, Steve Belloise, Charley Fusari, Jose Basora, Joe Rindone (x2), Bobby Dykes, Cyrille Delannoit

[Joey Giardello]

If Ali was past his prime when Frazier beat him, Frazier was certainly past his prime when Ali beat him. Ali even acknowledged Frazier wasn't the same fighter before the two stepped in the ring again.

Liston clearly was past it. It's not even remotely debatable. Well, if there is any debate, it's between whether he was just past it or he threw the fights altogether.

Henry Cooper is a B level fighter. Robinson beat 20 fighters on Cooper's level in his career. I'll even list them:

Pete Lello, Norman Rubio (x2), Reuben Shank, California Jackie Wilson (x2), Ralph Zannelli, Jimmy McDaniels, O'Neill Bell, Joe Curcio, Cecil Hudson I, Artie Levine, Georgie Abrams, Bernard Docusen, Don Lee (x2), Earl Turner, Steve Belloise, Charley Fusari, Jose Basora, Joe Rindone (x2), Bobby Dykes, Cyrille Delannoit

Yeah liston was that past it! thats why they made him a huge favourite and gave ali no chance! cooper was british, commenwealth and european champion when them belts ment something! he was a great win for ali, frazier was still close to him prime when ali beat him 2nd time round, he had only been beat by foreman, who would of always beaten joe!