Who Here Thinks That Liston Took A Dive?

[mickey malone]

For all Jersey Joe's poor handling of the contest......and Nat Fleicher's meddling from ringside, Sonny Liston had an amazing chin and that was no knockout punch! Sonny wasn't ever knocked out before and only as a much older man 5 years later was he truely stopped by Leotis Martin, by some terrific punches......check it out if its on You tube.

I dont think Sonny took a dive for gamblers, there was no reports of any big (first round KO for Ali) bets. Sonny was just a complex guy, maybe the black ******s had threatened him, perhaps there was a gorgeous ********** waiting. Perhaps he realised that Ali was just as friggin fast as a year before and that he didn't have the motivation to put up with all those combinations and movement. Maybe he was just disillusioned with the world......who knows?

Do I think Sonny could have got up straight away? Yes! When you watch a decent film of the fight (not a grainy You Tube example) Sonny appears to get to one knee and with a really embarrassed expression just flops over again...... this was no Berbick vs Tyson. He just didn't want one more minute of it.......and he was a dreadful actor.

I dont believe Ali thought he had knocked him out, Ali looked disgusted and told him to get up, that says it all for me! Ali didn't ask Foreman to get up did he? He knew he had hit him with decent punches......as for Liston 2......naa, not for me.

Absolutely!.. I think you're spot on Sugarj

The evidence is insurmountable.. Liston tried his best in the 1st fight, but didn't even turn up for the 2nd one.. He wasn't feeling half as well as he had been b4 losing to Ali the first time, and was looking for a quick way out..
Expecting Sonny to come out gunning for revenge, Ali had trained like a maniac, and as you've already pointed out, you see the frustration explode from Ali as he stands over him.. There's no fooling, no clowning, no elation -
just shear frustration at, 'What the hell you doing down there!!??'

[Feint]

It's hard to say. Too much time has passed and there isn't a clear answer from the tape. The problem with giving Liston the benefit of the doubt is the fact he was involved with the underworld for all those years.

Either way I don't think he could have beat Ali.

[Sugarj]

Thanks gents...

[EzzardFan]

Ali never was a great puncher by any stretch of the imagination, especially in his early career.

Ali was a perfectly good puncher with a decent KO record in the early part of his career. He would throw flurries of arm punches to look flashy and score points just like SRL, and he didn't particularly like hurting his opponents. But he could still punch when he wanted to.

[mhager91490]

Ali was a perfectly good puncher with a decent KO record in the early part of his career. He would throw flurries of arm punches to look flashy and score points just like SRL, and he didn't particularly like hurting his opponents. But he could still punch when he wanted to.

But to put a guy down for the count with an arm punch while he was moving backwards without his feet planted, it just seems way too out there for me to believe. Look at the first Frazier fight, almost every punch he threw in that fight was with his feet planted and thrown to hurt but it didn't appreciably dent the chin of Frazier. Ken Norton had a fairly weak chin and he took quite a few right hand counters from Ali and didn't flinch or shy away. Ali could overhwhelm guys and take the fight out of them but he was not a big hitter. He punched better later in his career when he became more of an attrition fighter and planted his feet more but when he was a mover his punches were not that hard, at least from what I have seen.

[roxy]

If it were a dive it would have been exposed by now.

[mickey malone]

If it were a dive it would have been exposed by now.

With the exception of a taped confession from Liston himself, i'd say it has been exposed.. The nearest person to him was Ali, and he'd swear to Allah on it!