The overrated Roberto Duran

[DeepSleep]

It was probably Mayweather's best ever performance, however I'd say he would have still had a lot of trouble with Castillo even in that form.

I believe the first fight Mayweather had with Castillo he had an injured shoulder(Whether or not it's true is debatable). Whether or not you believe him about the shoudler injury I thought he handled Castillo pretty well in their second fight winning a close but clear UD, so I'd imagine that Floyd would handle Castillo if he fought him on his best night, he would atleast be able to repeat what he did in the second fight. I think Floyd adapted to Castillo similar to how you alluded to how Duran adapted after his first fight with De Jesus.

Still I think if Castillo can apply enough pressure to force Mayweather into a ugly fight I'd imagine Duran would be able to also considering he forced the bigger and stronger Leonard into a trench fight.

Benitez was slick. But I think Mayweather was slicker. Benitez had good defense, but I think Mayweather's defense is better.

Benitez beat Duran.

I think Mayweather is slicker than Benitez but Mayweather tends to shell up and only rely on pot-shotting his opponents when they apply enough pressure to force him to defend constantly. Benitez thrives off his opponent’s pressure using it to setup his counterpunches. Benitez’s offensive output doesn't drop down nearly as much as Mayweather's when he gets put under extreme amounts of pressure.

[tyger]

Duran is overrated by everybody over 20. Even more so by historians and people in the know. Ever wonder why?

[BennyST]

Two close split decisions to Johnson and a lucky comeback after behind absolutely outclassed by Jackson up until the stoppage.


If you define a titlist as a champion, then that's your way of thinking.

Championship material, to me, is the man who beat the man. In other words, a lineal champion. Something Jorge "Fat" Castro was never able to become.

He still won them didn't he?

So, you say that Pac beat more champions and elite fighters and did it in more divisions and yet he only ever beat the man down at 118, 122 and 126 or something.

That means, according to you that he only should be a champion in a few weight classes.

It also means Mayweather is a three division champion or something.

With your way of thinking there are very few titlists today at all in fact. I'm sure you use the argument that Mayweather is a six division champion don't you? I'm sure you say that other fighters are also many division champions with the same argument. Jones for example being the only guy to win a MW and HW title in 100 years or whatever. According to you then, he didn't at all. He never fought Lewis.

Give it up man, your views are skewed.

[BennyST]

I said at the time, De Jesus was a journeyman. What would you call someone who's rising up in the ranks but never won a title. A top contender? Maybe that's a more suitable meaning. I sort of consider journeymen and top contenders the same. However, for your benefit, let's say he was a top contender.

You call a great prospect, a guy who is as good as the champions in his division but hasn't won a title yet a journeyman? So, Mayweather was a journeyman before his fight with Hernandez? Whitaker was a journeyman before his fight with Ramirez?

[eazy_mas]

Overrated?

Yes Duran is overrated because people tend to go baise toward the tought nail brawler rather than a boxer.


I think he was very beatable but he was very very tough to beat.

SRL was very smart in choosing the time to fight him. He is one of the smartess boxer of his era.

[BennyST]

Mind games isn't really bullying. Just a manner of trying to psych the opponent out.

De Jesus and Leonard basically tried to brawl with Duran. Whitaker and Mayweather wouldn't. They're all about keep their opponents at bay, landing counter punches and using their defense. It would not be similar to Duran's fights against De Jesus or Leonard, at all.

I just think that lacing the opponent's eyes with your gloves and thus hindering his vision is worse, considering you're in the middle of the fight and you need your vision.

You said Duran started at bantamweight and I said Pacquiao started at flyweight. The question wasn't how long they were at that weight. The question was which weight did they start at.

If he was shorter and weighed less than Duran, when they were around the same age, Pacquiao was the smaller man.

Mind games aren't bullying? I think you'll find mind games are the most effective form of bullying possible. If you don't think mind game are bullying then you should learn more about how the mind can effect someone. Ali was the bully against Frazier. In the build ups to their fight it was Ali trash talking, calling Frazier an Uncle Tom. This would have been the highest insult to Frazier. Ali bullied him. What else can you call it?

What makes you think Whitaker wouldn't brawl with Duran? I don't think you know enough about each guy to debate this fully to be honest. First: Whitaker often brawled as much as he played the defensive counter puncher. Throughout his whole career he often fought in the pocket or just straight out brawled without thinking too much about defense. Why do you think he got knocked down as many times as he did? He was knocked down more than Duran ever was and in as long a career as Duran had and fighting to the age of fifty +, that says something.

Two: Mayweather, at his earlier weights also was a much more aggressive fighter. He rarely ever just sat back and counter punched. He was in as many brawls as most fighters can get in: Manfredy, Rios, Gerena, Vargas, Ausgustus, Chavez, Castillo, Corley, N'Dou, Gatti (in the sense that he stood right in front of him and out punched him), Mitchell, Judah etc.

In every fight he stood his ground or walked them down, or lay on the ropes when he counter punched and rested. He rarely moved around or kept his opponent at bay by moving. He stood right in front of them or lay on the ropes waiting on them to come at him. Mayweather has only started moving a lot more since getting up to WW. Previously, and most importantly at 135, he stood his ground and traded more often than not, he lay on the ropes for lengthy periods of time fighting off them and never boxed in the way that gave Duran trouble ie. literally moving away backward non stop. Even at 135, against those opponents that did do this, Duran was quick enough with hand and foot and the same size as his opponents that he was able to get to them much easier. It was only against Leonard, Laing and Benitez where he was much smaller, older, slower and really not in the kind of shape he was at 135.

A LW Duran has the speed to match any very fast fighter as you saw in Leonard I. He still has the head movement which allowed him to slip one of the greatest jabs boxing has seen and contrary to most peoples opinion, he was as much of a counter puncher himself as an offensive lead puncher.

The only time he supposedly 'laced' Moore (even though it was more him trying to push Moore of him due to his own exhaustion) was at the end of the seventh or eight round. Moore was already completely beaten by this stage and that did absolutely nothing. Also, it is nearly impossible to lace someones eyes. It's rubbish. You can scratch their eyebrows etc, but with all the tape and shape of the gloves it's very hard to get your laces to their eye.

Not only that, but lacing is not nearly as bad as taking a headbutt or elbow. A great Mayweather trick that he has is that not only does his elbow act as a good defensive tool, but it acts as another weapon inside, and let me tell you, when you get hit with an elbow it is as bad as taking a flush punch without a glove on. Beats a lacing any day of the week. Not only that but it cuts your skin much easier too. If you think lacing is dirty (and the fact is that that wasn't even what you call lacing. That was exhaustion and getting someone off from being held), you should first take a headbutt or an elbow inside. The you'll think twice about calling someones open glove in your face disgraceful. An elbow or headbutt is more damaging than any amount of lacing could ever be. If you can figure out how lacing is worse than having a badly swollen eye and a huge cut with blood pouring into the eye from an elbow or headbutt, then I'll concede the point that lacing is dirtier than those.

In that fight also, you'll not actually find a single account of Duran deliberately thumbing Moore. What happened, and this happens all the time, is that when you punch someone with a straight right and it's not a direct hit the thumb section of your glove can hit their eye socket. It is very, very common and most badly swollen eyes are actually from this and its variants. That's why thumbless gloves were, for a while, all the rage. You're just repeating stuff you've heard without watching it properly. Find one account of Duran thumbing Moore deliberately and put up the round and time of it. You won't though because it's not there. I've checked. What I have seen though is Duran landing right hands after which Moore's eye became badly swollen which was the result of the punch as well as his thumb section hitting Moore as much as his knuckle section because of a shot off to the side slightly.

Pac and Duran are half an inch apart in height. Duran at 5'7" and Pac at 5'6 1/2". Both guys by about thirty had become WW's but Pac had been weighing in as a WW for much longer than Duran had and that was with day before weigh ins. Pac had moved up from Flyweight as a sixteen year old. Duran had started out at bantamweight as a seventeen year old. Pac was nearly always fighting as a bantamweight unless it was a title fight, major or minor and it was only a few years after he started that he made the full jump to superbantamweight. From 2004 he was a FW usually weighing in at the WW division and then only four years later was a genuine WW.

Now, the big difference here is the weigh ins. Pac has always had day before weigh ins and better hydrating techniques. Duran had same day weigh ins. With day before weigh ins he would have started much lower and stayed lower for much longer. Pacquiao would never have been making 122, 126 or 130 back when he was first fighting all the big names. He was already weighing in as a WW in those fights so I don't see how you're saying he was smaller. He would probably never have been a Flyweight. He has been weighing in as a WW since his mid to late twenties. Duran was weighing in as a LW with same day weigh ins until he made the move to LWW first, then WW in his late twenties just before he hit thirty.

Pac has traversed over eight divisions I think? Or nine by now. He has moved from flyweight to WW which is about 40 pounds. Duran went from bantamweight to LHW at the end of his career. About ten divisions and nearly sixty pounds.

Anyway, by the same age Pac had traveled more divisions due to him not being able to make weight anymore with day before weigh ins. What does that tell you? He looks like a solid, genuine WW. From the fights up to and including Leonard I and II, Duran looked like a LW that had put on weight badly. The only fight where he looked like a trim WW was Leonard I. All the rest he looked slightly flabby. He was still smaller than every opponent he faced after LW. Pac has either been bigger or the same size. The only guy he was obviously smaller than was Oscar. After Leonard II, Duran just looked fat. I don't see how you come to that conclusion.

The era also comes into play here though. Duran was in a particularly tough WW era in which most of the guys fighting were a lot bigger than him. At LW, he was often smaller than many of his opponents. Check out the size difference between him and Buchanan. It's staggering.

[BennyST]

Now that you mention it, it does seem a bit overrated in the p4p discussion. But for the most part he is rated highly as a lightweight.

He lossed to SRL, Hagler, Hearns, and Benitez as a welterweight. So, I understand where your comming from for the overall p4p discussion. But as a lightweight i think he is rated just fine.

The only fights he had at WW were with Leonard. All the others were at 154 or 160.

[BennyST]

I rated him #21 on my P4P list and i don't think that is being disrespectful considering the sport has over 120 years of modern title fights.


In my list, i have him higher than these guys

22-Tony Canzonieri
23-Manny Pacquiao
24-Julio Cesar Chavez
25-Sandy Saddler
26-Stanley Ketchel
27-Barney Ross
28-Ezzard Charles
29-Marcel Cedan
30-Kid Chocolate

My main issue is when they put duran as top 10 P4P and rate him as the greatest latin fighter of all time. The greatest latin fighter dosen't get outbox by Wilfred Benitez at 154 quite easy. Also Benitez started at 140 and 154 was his third weight class. But i will rate Duran higher mainly due to his LW career.

Well, with respect to Monzon who I also rate very highly, he never moved up at all. He lost three or four times in his one division. Duran lost once, avenging it twice by brutal KO. If Monzon had moved up to LHW or even HW, then that would have been the equivalent of what Duran did but he didn't. He stayed in the one division his whole career.

While Duran got outboxed by Benitez, it was one of his greatest performances during one of his greatest title runs and while it was his third division, it was Duran's eighth! Benitez was twenty four years old. He was over 5'10" with a 70" reach. Duran was well over thirty years old, 5'7" with only a 66" reach.

Not only that but Benitez himself is right up there as one of the greatest latin fighters of all time as well as an ATG. Why can one of the slickest ever boxers not outbox an older, smaller guy in his eighth division? If it's such a travesty why weren't more people able to beat Benitez? The only guy that had beaten him was Leonard at Leonard's natural weight and Duran had beaten him.

Monzon never left MW so you have no idea how he would have done against a much bigger, younger, skillful boxer that was also an ATG himself. The only ATG's that Monzon ever fought were half his size and old. The comparison doesn't add up. You would expect Monzon to beat those guys just as Benitez was expected to beat Duran.

I think he's very nearly the best MW but Duran's LW reign compares with Monzon's easily and he moved up to WW and beat two HOF, and a top ten/twenty ATG at his best weight and peak age and then moved up again and fought a bigger, younger, ATG at 154 who beat him.

I don't see how you can say that a true ATG shouldn't lose to another ATG that is bigger, younger and at an advantage in most areas by that stage of Duran's career.

If you're going to compare Monzon and Duran, you can compare their natural divisions.

Monzon had a record of 87-3 with nine draws. How many of those were losses but in his hometown? All were at MW. I know he had some interesting draws with guys like Briscoe in Argentina and many other draws with guys that were literal journeymen that he was meant to beat easily. Most of his losses came early, but he also lost to a guy with two fights and he was an experienced prospect by that stage. If Duran lost in his LW reign to a guy with only two fights and that guy went on to lose many more fights than he won, he wouldn't be considered the best LW by most.

Duran had about 63-1 LW fights, though he started out at bantamweight and had many fights by the time he got to LW. We'll include those anyway.

Monzon had fourteen defenses. Duran had twelve. Duran still holds the record for most title defenses at LW from memory. I think Hopkins holds the MW record now. They both unified their division.

Monzon's best win or wins were Rodrigo Valdez and Nino Benvenuti. Duran's were Buchanan, De Jesus and Marcel (if you want to include that as it was at 126 or 130 I think). Buchanan is in the HOF, Marcel was nominated for the HOF this year. Benvenuti is in the HOF. I'm sure both Valdez and De Jesus will make it one day too.

I look at their records like that as being very even. Monzon then retired as champion without losing as a champion at his weight. He had fights he could have taken and fights that people wanted him to take at a higher weight. Duran also retired as an unbeaten champion at his weight. After though, he moved up to WW beating the HOF'er Palomino and the top ten/twenty ATG younger, bigger Leonard. He then lost to Leonard at WW and later Benitez at 154. He would win another title at 154 himself beating the guy who then knocked out Benitez.

He then moved up and challenged Monzon's major successor in Hagler, and a guy who is usually considered the greater MW between the two, and lost a very narrow decision. He then later won the middleweight title as well.

HOw can you not understand why people think he is the great latin fighter and a top ten P4P? If you yourself have Monzon higher than Duran and their records look like that....

[BennyST]

I didn't say only the aggressor. Mix aggressiveness and the huge lack of respect (ie. refusing to touch gloves and pushing Leonard after the fight was over), and I call him a bully. If you don't, that's your opinion.

So you think pushing someone you've just been fighting is a huge sign of disrespect but pulling your opponents shorts down in the middle of a fight isn't?

What about laughing at your opponent after he misses and then talking **** to him, calling him a *****?

All fighter have their own way of disrespecting their opponent? Mayweather laughs at them and calls them names during the fight. He has also refused to touch gloves in his fights. Whitaker does all sorts of **** during the fight. He has an entire history of being disrespectful. Duran had his own way too. The only thing is, because you dislike Duran you notice his and think it's bad, whereas you don't notice it when your favourite fighters do it or you think it's isn't disrespectful, but that is true for many aspects of this discussion I've realised. One standard for a fighter you dislike, another for fighters you like.

They're no different from each other. Each guy does it because they think they're better. Although you probably don't believe Duran was a nicer guy outside the ring than I imagine both Whiatker and Mayweather are. Duran never beat his wife, Mayweather did numerous times. While it has nothing to do with their ring achievements, I don't think you can call one a disrespectful bully and the others good, respectful guys.

Dedicating your fight on international TV to battered women everywhere is less disrespectful than pushing the guy you've just been fighting for half an hour? Especially when the opponent could have said the same thing.

Like it or not, when you have a dislike of someone your view gets distorted. It's just natural. Your view is distorted even though you think it's not. If you were just some guy that read your responses and didn't care either for or against Duran, you could easily see the dislike and biased nature of the replies.

[StarshipTrooper]

A great series of posts Benny!

Poet