The overrated Roberto Duran

[TheGreatA]

On the contrary.

The debate was about whether Duran can be considered overrated. He tried to show me how Duran is a top 10 all-time great and a top 3 lightweight. He failed. I tried to show him the opposite. I failed.

But he did agree with me on one thing: Duran can be overrated.

I disagree on your definition of "overrated". If I said that Duran is by no means a top 10 ATG or a top 3 lightweight, then I'd agree with you. He'd be overrated. But I believe he can be rated both in and outside of the top 10 all-time greats. It's very subjective.

As far as winning this debate, I don't think either party involved can make such a claim as that'd come off as biased. You'll have to leave it to the people not involved in the debate, although they could be biased too. That's why I don't really concern myself with it.

[Method Checker]

I disagree on your definition of "overrated". If I said that Duran is by no means a top 10 ATG or a top 3 lightweight, then I'd agree with you. He'd be overrated. But I believe he can be rated both in and outside of the top 10 all-time greats. It's very subjective.

As far as winning this debate, I don't think either party involved can make such a claim as that'd come off as biased. You'll have to leave it to the people not involved in the debate, although they could be biased too. That's why I don't really concern myself with it.

The point is that you admitted that he can be overrated. That he can be left out of a top 10 all-time great list. That it's possible for him to not to be rated as the greatest lightweight of all-time

That's all that matters.

And in my view, I don't see him as a top 10 all-time great or as the greatest lightweight of all-time. Meaning that I think he's overrated.

[TheGreatA]

The point is that you admitted that he can be overrated. That he can be left out of a top 10 all-time great list. That it's possible for him to not to be rated as the greatest lightweight of all-time

That's all that matters.

And in my view, I don't see him as a top 10 all-time great or as the greatest lightweight of all-time. Meaning that I think he's overrated.

I'm not sure if I get what you mean. I believe such rankings are entirely subjective and that Duran has a good case to be ranked among top 20, top 10 greatest fighters of all time. That's not overrating him in my view. Overrating him would be calling Duran the greatest fighter of all time, or one of the best welterweights of all time, when he doesn't have the accomplishments to be rated that highly. There's no real case to be made to rank him that highly. That'd be overrating him.

[Method Checker]

I'm not sure if I get what you mean. I believe such rankings are entirely subjective and that Duran has a good case to be ranked among top 20, top 10 greatest fighters of all time. That's not overrating him in my view. Overrating him would be calling Duran the greatest fighter of all time, or one of the best welterweights of all time, when he doesn't have the accomplishments to be rated that highly. There's no real case to be made to rank him that highly. That'd be overrating him.

Definition of overrated: To esteem too highly; to give greater praise than due

I don't rate Duran that highly. So he's overrated, in my view, and probably by many others, as well.

[HaglerSteelChin]

@BennyST



I think you misunderstood what i said about reach. It does help if the opponent makes it an issue. Benitez is was not on his bike and doing potshots or pittypat, or using his slight reach advantage. Benitez was willing to allow Duran to engage him on the inside. Hearns has much bigger reach than Benitez; but Benitez made him miss 11 consecutive blows since he is better at slipping and ducking. In addition, i said if small guys beating bigger guys is a sign of greatness than why would Duran be rated higher than Marciano who a shorter reach than literally all of his opponents; yet never lost a fight. Why is he higher than Jack Dempsey who murdered Jess "the giant" willard who was much bigger than him and many of his opponents. Even Mike Tyson beat alot of guys like TNT Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith, Bruno, Ribalda, etc., who had greater reach than him. Yet nobody would rate Tyson higher than bigger heavyweights as Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, or even Lewis.

BTW, Benitez was once knocked down three times in a fight and still got up to beat Curry. The Moore fight ended with Benitez having a broken ankle.

My issue is more simply techinicall skill ask Angelo Dundee who was the more technical fighter Duran or Monzon. Dundee the man who trained Ali and Leonard said: "Monzon is the complete fighter......he can box you...he can outpunch you.....or he can even outhink you....he is game all the way." That is more to my point that guys like Monzon or Salvador Sanchez can assimilate and adapt to any style. When DUran fought Hearns the trainer and commentator Gil Clancy said: "Duran needs to get low against a much taller fighter to make it harder for him to hit you and force him to get in the inside." Hearns was KOD by both Hagler and SRL two guys much smaller than him. Benitez took Hearns to the full 15 RDS but Hearns destroyed Duran in 2rds. Monzon had alot of boxing IQ and i doubt he ever will be in a position where he would say NO MAS. I see things like the sport of tennis there is hard courts, decca turf, Clay, and Grass. Monzon was a fighter who could fight any style- a guy like Duran had trouble with slick fighters who use both speed and movement. Monzon neutrailzed speed with timing and clinching if needed, he neutralize power with a granite chin, he neutralize superior skill by intelligence.

If you want to be critical of Monzon and has early losses, than trash bernard
hopkins for his early loss at LHW. Also throw in Henry Armstrong for losing 3 of his first 4 fights. Also question Salvador Sanchez for an early loss in his career. But i guess the fact that he didn't lose his last 13 years of fighting and he defended his MW title a record 14 times at the time perhaps may offset some of those early losses? Also Monzon was KD only once in his entire career in his 100th fight and never was KO'D.

We will discuss the whole issue of moving up and size again. Monzon fought many guys like Licata who was about the same height and was 50-1. He also beat Benevenuti a Hall of Famer twice by KO who had same size dimensions. He beat Hall of Famer Jose Napoles and Hall of Famer Emile Griffith twice. That is 5 wins against Hall of Famers and two wins against Valdez who is bordeline HOF material. You mention that all his fights were at MW. That is not correct. Monzon had a few non title fights and what would be classified as the SMW division nowadays. Guess what? He won all those fights by early KO which suggests he possibly was weight drained in alot of those 160 fights. There are numerous stories of him starving or burning down calories to make weight. He was much more methodical than Duran, Duran got tired in the last 2 Rds against hagler. Monzon knew how to conserve energy and how to maintain stamina.

If Monzon goes to LHW he could have met a guy like **** Tiger. Tiger was smaller than Monzon but looking at the people who beat Tiger there is nothing preventing from saying he coudnt beat him or Conteh who lost to Muhammad twice. I think Bob Foster would have been the opponent at LHW who can given him is greatest challenge. Brawn alone is not going to beat Monzon; because he was a thinking and methodical fighter.

You mention that Duran fought in many divisions but he won titles in 4. Something that has been done numerous times with alphabet soup belts. THomas Hearns won a title in 6 divisions if you count his cruiser title; yet i still rank Duran higher than both Hearns and Hagler. How many defenses does Duran have between 147-160? A total of 0. He never defended any title he had over 135. Something that guys like DLH and even Arguello have done. In fact, when discussing the greatest latin fighters Duran pretty much put Arguello in his class. He also put Trinidad up there a guy who defended his WW title 17 times and did have several defenses of his JR MW title. I myself rate Trinidad much lower than Duran and Arguello slightly lower than Duran. Duran himself admitted " i can't rate guys like Kid Chocolate or Gavilan since they were before my time and he said he didnt see enough of Napoles to rate him. Duran himself rated Chavez, Benitez, and Wilfredo Gomez high. An argument can even be made of Chavez vs Duran; although i would favor Duran in that battle.

This whole thread can go back and forth until the cows come home. If people want to think Duran is a top 10 PFP fighter or the greatest latin fighter than fine; but they can force that opinion on anyone.

[Method Checker]

Number of lightweight title defenses by Duran: 12
Number of lightweight title defenses against top 10 ranked opponents: 7
Percentage: 58%

Number of lightweight title defenses by Ortiz: 10
Number of lightweight title defenses against top 10 ranked opponents: 9
Percentage: 90%

EDIT: Keep in mind that the top 10 ranked opponents is for fighters in any division. Not exclusively the lightweight division.

[TheGreatA]

According to my knowledge the following were top 10 ranked:

Hiroshi Kobayashi
Ken Buchanan
Jimmy Robertson
Esteban DeJesus
Hector Thompson
Suzuki Ishimatsu
Ray Lampkin
Lou Bizzarro
Leoncio Ortiz
Saoul Mamby
Emiliano Villa
Edwin Viruet
Vilomar Fernandez

Although some at 140 lbs.

[F l i c k e r]

Number of lightweight title defenses by Duran: 12
Number of lightweight title defenses against top 10 ranked opponents: 7
Percentage: 58%

Number of lightweight title defenses by Ortiz: 10
Number of lightweight title defenses against top 10 ranked opponents: 9
Percentage: 90%

EDIT: Keep in mind that the top 10 ranked opponents is for fighters in any division. Not exclusively the lightweight division.

Which Ortiz is that? Victor Ortiz? Who?

[Method Checker]

According to my knowledge the following were top 10 ranked:

Hiroshi Kobayashi
Ken Buchanan
Jimmy Robertson
Esteban DeJesus
Hector Thompson
Suzuki Ishimatsu
Ray Lampkin
Lou Bizzarro
Leoncio Ortiz
Saoul Mamby
Emiliano Villa
Edwin Viruet
Vilomar Fernandez

Although some at 140 lbs.

Some of those weren't title defenses, though.

Which Ortiz is that? Victor Ortiz? Who?

Carlos Ortiz

[steeluv]

Number of lightweight title defenses by Duran: 12
Number of lightweight title defenses against top 10 ranked opponents: 7
Percentage: 58%

Number of lightweight title defenses by Ortiz: 10
Number of lightweight title defenses against top 10 ranked opponents: 9
Percentage: 90%

EDIT: Keep in mind that the top 10 ranked opponents is for fighters in any division. Not exclusively the lightweight division.

:wank:


in no way shape or form is Ortiz better than Duran... Duran is the best ever latino fighter

u can look with a fine toothcomb for gay ass stats to make u feel more of a chump that u already sound,

if u want to talk stats

KO's

Duran 70
Ortiz 30

KO%
Duran 58.82
Ortiz 42.86

Most Weights world champ at Duran wins again

beating a better competition, Duran Beat Sugar Ray Leonard, Flash Elorde or Ramos although great boxers they are aint standing 10% chance of beating a Ray Leonard - Duran wins again

Longevity Duran beat the Iran Barkley age 37 in fight of the year for S Middlewelt Belt! Ortiz held his last belt age 31.

If u want to compare Duran..... Compare him to a hopkins or mosely etc not some dude who barely moved out of his division..and hardly won a fight in his 30's