Ezzard Charles or Ray Leonard?

[TheGreatA]

Top contenders beat future and past champions all the time. Does that mean they should automatically be a champion?

How many title shots did Lloyd Marshall receive? He was the top contender at middleweight and light heavyweight yet never received a shot, despite beating champions in non-title bouts.

He was world champion material, simple as that.

[wmute]

Yes it is about Leonard and Charles,and then you changed the subject and listed a number of fighters who Leonard apparently "avoided" and it's pretty well known by now that you rate Duran and Hagler very highly,and I thought it was quite funny that you would list these fighters that Leonard avoided in which one was legitimately avoided by Duran.

I did not change the subject, I was pointing out how Leonard spent his early 30s without fighting the best of his division, while Charles was fighting everyone. I am glad you found the observation amusing.

Yes,I will call it avoiding challengers.Hagler had plenty of time to defend against Herol Graham and he didn't because he knew the risk involved and happily vacated his title to do so.

Suit yourself.

In case you've been misreading my posts,I never even brought up Leonard and Charles,I responded to one particular post of yours in which you claimed Leonard was "avoiding" the fighters listed.

In other words you were "trolling". Thank you

I never brought up resume's at 168.

You claimed that Duran "had not beat anyone worth noting at the weight" in regards to the super middleweight division,the fight never even took place at 168

I was following up on a debate about 168, the point about Duran started because the respective runs of Hearns and Leonard at 168 were being compared. One poster was proposing Duran as a good 168 win. I pointed out that Duran got close to zero done at 168 and the Barkley fight was at 160, so it did not quite matter for Duran's relevance at 168. Which part of my point you disagree with?

[wmute]

Like I said. Future and past champions get beat by top contenders all the time. It happens. That doesn't automatically mean they would've been a champion.

You are missing a relevant point. These fighters (Bivins and -I am trusting theGreatA memory on this one) beat champions multiple times, before, after (and sometimes during their reign in non title bouts) and never get a shot at said champions. In fact, they never got a shot at any champion. By any standards they are considered championship material.

Do you even know what a prime is? A prime the absolute peak of a fighter's career where he can perform at his best. Ali's was from 1964 to 1967. Does that mean he should be ranked lower than Leonard? No. Because you can still be good after your prime.

Yes, Ali was the dominant heavyweight for years. Leonard has only one important win after his prime.

I saw the tide shifting and Leonard adapting. Fighter's get tired as they go into the later rounds.

Fighters who are weight drained get tired easier as they go into later rounds.

You're clearly just taking it out of line now and until you get some sense of respect, I'm not going to continue debating with you. Bye now.

And when would I have lost "sense of respect" exactly?

[EzzardFan]

What is very surprising to me is that when someone posts their ATG Top 10 Heavyweights Ezzard Charles is never in that list, yet if it is to be even suggested that Charles could beat fighters on that list you will "immediately be shot down in flames" with quotes like, "He was too little... He was only a light-heavy... He would be killed in the 1st round by a 6ft 6ins 250lb guy... He would never get past the jab... etc etc etc... these quotes could not be further from the truth... The same thing applies to Floyd Patterson who was a "Fantastic Boxer/Puncher" yet he barely makes most peoples Top ATG 30 list.... Ezzard Charles, Floyd Patterson & Muhammad Ali are the top 3 boxers in heavyweight history..

I did!

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...70#post7280270

I put him at number 6 And only because I fear a prime Liston might have knocked his head off.

He lost to an old Walcott twice.

Where's the shame in that. Walcott was one of the greatest fighters of his era. Like Charles and Moore he was denied a title shot for years. Also like them a lot of the time he couldn't even afford to eat. Walcott put Joe Louis on his ass with a left hook to the jaw in 1947 in the fourth round and went on to lose a close decision. Louis was still a force back then. Walcott was a precursor to Ali in a lot of ways. The Ali shuffle was just an update on the Walcott shuffle. An ageing Walcott also took Marciano 13 rounds in their first fight. Don't knock old Joe he was almost as underrated as Ezzard.

When Charles was fighting there were no supper middleweight or cruiserweight divisions. Yet he could have won titles at all three. That's like being able to beat everyone in 5 weight divisions these days. Charles was naturally around 168-175 yet he beat top heavyweights.

The first fight with Marciano was very close. The reason Charles lost that fight was because a belt doesn't usually get handed over on points unless there's a wide margin. Had Charles been the champion going into that fight then his performance would have been enough to retain the title.

In the second fight Rocky was only seconds away from being stopped on a TKO. His nose was split in two. That's about as close as it gets!

Charles prime lasted over 10 years. Charles should have quit after his second defeat by Marciano. I love Ray Leonard, he's great to watch, but he stuck most of his best years up his nose.

BTW I'd just like to add that I'm really glad I found this forum. Didn't realise there were so many people out there like me who fully appreciated Ezzard Charles

[StarshipTrooper]

You are missing a relevant point. These fighters (Bivins and -I am trusting theGreatA memory on this one) beat champions multiple times, before, after (and sometimes during their reign in non title bouts) and never get a shot at said champions. In fact, they never got a shot at any champion. By any standards they are considered championship material.

Yes, Ali was the dominant heavyweight for years. Leonard has only one important win after his prime.

Fighters who are weight drained get tired easier as they go into later rounds.

And when would I have lost "sense of respect" exactly?

Owning someone with logic is apparently "dissing" them. BTW, great to see you haven't lost your form! We need more of it around here these days

Poet

[Method Checker]

Owning someone with logic is apparently "dissing" them. BTW, great to see you haven't lost your form! We need more of it around here these days

Poet

Owning with logic? More like personal attacks. If he wants to continue debating, I want an apology first.

And poet, don't ever quote anything related to me ever again. You don't deserve the honor. You may think you're intelligent but I find you to be quite the opposite. To add to that, you post in a spice girl pink font and have 40 year old men in stripper costumes in your sig. Back off.

[StarshipTrooper]

Owning with logic? More like personal attacks. If he wants to continue debating, I want an apology first.

There was nothing personal in any of his responses. He made reasonable, logical points and you could neither handle it or respond to them.

And poet, don't ever quote anything related to me ever again. You don't deserve the honor. You may think you're intelligent but I find you to be quite the opposite. To add to that, you post in a spice girl pink font and have 40 year old men in stripper costumes in your sig. Back off.

Oh you seriously don't want to go there with me. I'll chew you up and spit you out if you want to start a flame war. As for me not deserving the honor? You're so far beneath me intellectually that you may as well be an earthworm. There is certainly nothing in any of you meager resume of posts that would indicate anything resembling boxing knowledge or even intelligence. Seriously, you should be thankful that I even condescend to address you because normally someone of your proven lack of intellect isn't worth my time and even commanding a moment of my time is an honor FAR above your station and measure. I mean really: You're an untermenschen troglodyte that's managed to pick fights with two of the best posters in the boxing history section (TheGreatA and wmute) in just your first two or three days posting here. They have more knowledge about boxing in their respective pinkies than you're ever likely to possess in your lifetime. Have a nice day Junior!

Poet

[Method Checker]

Oh you seriously don't want to go there with me. I'll chew you up and spit you out if you want to start a flame war. As for me not deserving the honor? You're so far beneath me intellectually that you may as well be an earthworm. There is certainly nothing in any of you meager resume of posts that would indicate anything resembling boxing knowledge or even intelligence. Seriously, you should be thankful that I even condescend to address you because normally someone of your proven lack of intellect isn't worth my time and even commanding a moment of my time is an honor FAR above your station and measure. I mean really: You're an untermenschen troglodyte that's managed to pick fights with two of the best posters in the boxing history section (TheGreatA and wmute) in just your first two or three days posting here. They have more knowledge about boxing in their respective pinkies than you're ever likely to possess in your lifetime. Have a nice day Junior!

Translation: I'll respond by saying I'm smarter than him in a couple of different ways and then leave.

[StarshipTrooper]

Translation: I'll respond by saying I'm smarter than him in a couple of different ways and then leave.

Give it up! You're just making yourself look like a bigger moron than you already do

Poet

[Method Checker]

Give it up! You're just making yourself look like a bigger moron than you already do

Poet

Oh, really now? You haven't given any opinions related to the thread topic. You're in here to troll and you say I'm a moron? Ha. I laugh at your irony.

Go and play with your dolls. I'm sure the men in your sig would love to join you, as well.