Bernard Hopkins Over Rated! any one agree?

[TheStoneRoses]

I Don't agree, Hopkins is one of the greatest p4p champs ever

[General Zod]

To be overrated is not necessarily a bad thing it just means his not as good as people think he is. For example he simply doesnt have the competition to be considered a legendary fighter.

Delahoya: was a A+ ww, but a poor mw he should be 0-2 at mw, he would move back down to jmw and say that he had no business at mw. So a win over him is good but not great.

Tito: At ww he was A+, but at mw he was at best B, he lost by complete shut outs to the two best mw's he faced. The fact that he went 3-2 at mw and then retired shows that mw was not his prime division. Also the hand wrap issue hurts his legacy as well, where did his punching power go after the Hopkins dressing room fiasco? So a win over him is good but not great.

Jones: he lost clearly to Jones and priced himself out of a rematch, how could Hopkins demand 50-50 split with Jones whose belt would of been on the line, and was a much more popular fighter?

Toney: Hopkins priced himself out of this as well, on the day the contracts were to be signed he refused to sign complaining about money problems.

Taylor: Back to back losses to Taylor who just wasnt very goo and is now 1-4 in his last 5 fights.

So if people want to say he is good/solid champion etc, I have no problem with that, but to say he is legendary or the like, then I have to disagee with that.

[Dynamite Kid]

For me he is not in the same league as other legends he is always geting compared to! such as archie moore! his 2 defeats to taylor and calzaghe were bad defeats as i dont rate them both as great fighters! now if hopkins was as great as he says he should of beat them both!

His best wins are against blown up welterweights and most of his title defence's were just the ibf title, were as most of former middleweight king carlos monzon title defences were the wbc and wba. He also priced himself out of super fights with james toney and a roy jones rematch, which hurt his legacy.What are your thoughts on hopkins being over rated?

I dont think he is overrated. I think Roy Jones is overrated (legacy wise)

Although id agree a criticism that can be leveled at Hopkins is that a part of his greatness is attributed to his longevity later in his career.


IMO you cant disregard some of the elite fighters he has beaten though, smaller or not. Some fighters never fight an elite fighter in their career yet Hopkins has fought Winky, DLH, Tito, Tarver, Jones, Calzaghe,plus when you add his Middleweight reign (20 defences)and solid wins like Pavlik, Echols, Glen Johnson,Holmes,Joppy.

I can understand why someone could think he is overrated but is there a fighter out there that you could not find valid arguments for to question their resume, which looks strong from the outset but when get into it you can find reasons why its not as strong as it looks?

On the whole and say Hopkins is rated accordingly, however i dont disagree with anyone who think its overrated.

[BOLLOCKS]

I agree.....

[SplitSecond]

can i just put this out there? hopkins was as prime as can be against roy jones
you get less athletic as you age, after jones he started declining(in his 30's)
hopkins actually had power at that time, great stamina and all, to say the hopkins that fought jones could'nt beat the midgets tito and oscar de la hoya is truely ignorance

and his style changed? obviously when your 35 your not gonna be fighting like a 28 year old, what a ****** myth

[Obama]

Here is a few differences i have with the comparisons with his fights with DLH and Trinidad compared to Hagler vs Hearns and Duran. DLH never belonged at MW. In fact, his only win for the WBO title was a gift decision against Felix Sturm. In addition, DLH started at 130 and was physically much smaller than BHOP. Trinidad lost the BHOP fight right before the bell rung. Once he was made to re-wrap that solid punch that KOD Wiliam Joppy mysteriously gone. Joppy never was even KOD by BHOP and J-Taylor, it was obvious Tito had something in those gloves fishy.

DLH's body was more suited for MW than Duran. And Hopkins fought him at a catchweight of 156 lbs. DLH weighed in at 155, 1 lb over the JMW limit. DLH was the #1 rated JMW before "losing" to a prime HOF bound Shane Mosley under the influence of EPO, HGH, and the Clear. DLH was also clearly out of shape for the Sturm fight, and in top condition for the Hopkins fight. DLH also weighed 160 for Sturm.

Hopkins natural size compared to Hagler's size cannot be used against him in regards to greatness in 1 specific weight division. It only has legitimacy in rating them p4p, then again, Hopkins actually moved up and won the Ring LHW title while Hagler retired as a MW.

You're clutching at straws claiming Trinidad was nothing without his hand wraps. And even if you want to pretend the wraps made him, he would have needed to land clean punches to KO Hopkins, who has a very good chin. I don't recall when he was doing this. At no point in the fight does a viewer sit there and say to himself "Tito would be in this fight if he hit harder."

And seriously, there was nothing illegal in the hand wraps. The manner in which they were wrapped was the issue. Different commissions have different rules when it comes to wrapping. ****m Richardson has witnessed both the Tito and the Margarito hand wraps. He's on record stating that what Margarito did was far worse than what Tito did.

Hagler beat Thomas Hearns who was both taller and had a greater reach. The fact that Hearns started as a WW was inconsequential as he would fights as high as crusierweight. Duran was not much smaller than Hagler. Hagler was like 5-9 and even SRL was taller and they had almost same reach about 74 inches. Hopkins is like 6-1 and never had to deal with bigger guys like Hagler did. Hagler fought much taller guys as Minter, Obeljimias, Geraldo to name a few. Both Hearns and Duran are much higher in boxing history than DLH or Trinidad can ever wish for.

It is not inconsequential where Hearns started. He was above his best weight, as was Trinidad. Main difference between Trinidad and Hearns was one man got disinterested in fighting after he lost, while the other didn't. Thus Hearns continued to climb the scales. And while he got to CW, he clearly had no business fighting at that point. Anyways, Hearns resume at MW is far from impressive. He also got KTFO by Iran Barkley.

Once again with Duran, I don't care how small you think Hagler was. Duran started his career at Featherweight for Christ's sake. He even beat a future FW Champion while he was there, Ernesto Marcel. Duran's best weight division was LW, this much cannot be argued. DLH's best on the other hand was WW. Which one is closer to MW?

Hopkins also fought larger Middleweights, few were bigger than him, but he fought them. As stated before it doesn't really matter, Hopkins moved up to LHW, Hagler didn't.

Tarver, Pavlik, Holmes, and Mercado are all at least 6'2. And while guys like Echols weren't that tall, he was a very built man.

I have the BHOP Vs Mercado fight on DVD, haven't seen it in years. But here is the thing. BHOP got KD twice in two different RDS. That means he needs to make up for 4 points in 10RDS. Even if he wins 7 out of those 10 RDS than he has a draw. He would need to win 8 of the 10 non kd rds to win the fight. BHOP might have been able to squeak it out but he was in the other guy's country and needed to do more to win the vacant title. In fact, i remember Don King and Butch Lewis arguing after the fight. Don King said something like " We shoudln't come out with a draw my fighter KD twice and had control of the fight." BHOP was like "only one of them should have been scored as a KD and he thought he pulled it by a point."

Nonetheless, I do consider BHOP as one of the greatest MW champs. I just don't think he is a top 5 MW.

Your memory of the fight is shady.

Round 1: 10 - 9 Hopkins
Round 2: 10 - 9 Hopkins
*Round 3: 10 - 9 Hopkins
Round 4: 10 - 9 Hopkins
Round 5: 8 - 10 Mercado
*Round 6: 10 - 9 Hopkins
Round 7: 8 - 10 Mercado
Round 8: 9 - 10 Mercado
Round 9: 10 - 9 Hopkins
Round 10: 10 - 9 Hopkins
Round 11: 10 - 9 Hopkins
Round 12: 10 - 9 Hopkins

Final Score: 115 - 111 Hopkins

This was a really easy fight to score.

The starred rounds are rounds in which Hopkins was robbed of a knockdown. He was robbed blind in the 3rd, and mildly robbed in the 6th (Mercado sat on the ropes to keep himself up). In both instances Mercado was very noticeably hurt. Anyways, Hopkins won 9 rounds. 2 KDS doesn't make up for that.

[General Zod]

I dont think he is overrated. I think Roy Jones is overrated (legacy wise)

Jones moved up to fighter bigger fighters, while Hopkins moved down to fight smaller fighters, so Jones in my opinion should always be ranked higher.

IMO you cant disregard some of the elite fighters he has beaten though, smaller or not. Some fighters never fight an elite fighter in their career yet Hopkins has fought Winky, DLH, Tito, Tarver, Jones, Calzaghe,plus when you add his Middleweight reign (20 defences)and solid wins like Pavlik, Echols, Glen Johnson,Holmes,Joppy.

If the fighters you beat dont achieve anything in the weight class you beat them like Winky and Pavlik, then the wins are good but not great. Winky was Hopkins wbc mandatory I believe but Hopkins chose to fight a green Taylor instead. He lost to Jones and Calzaghe so im not sure why you are listing them? Johnson, Joppy and Echols were good fighters but not great fighters, none of them are ATG or even HOFers.

I can understand why someone could think he is overrated but is there a fighter out there that you could not find valid arguments for to question their resume, which looks strong from the outset but when get into it you can find reasons why its not as strong as it looks?

On the whole and say Hopkins is rated accordingly, however i dont disagree with anyone who think its overrated.

Where do you rate him on the ATG list? Also why has he only ever fought one bigger fighter, if you can class Tarver as a bigger fighter seeing as how Hopkins pro debut was at lhw?

[Obama]

Also why has he only ever fought one bigger fighter, if you can class Tarver as a bigger fighter seeing as how Hopkins pro debut was at lhw?

You can class a lot of people as bigger fighters if you monitor the night of the fight weights. Hopkins was not a natural LHW when he started his career, he merely was unconditioned at the time. Hopkins was willing to make 154 lbs up to age 39, so it's quite foolish to suggest he was natural for 175 when he was 23. Hopkins actually offered to fight DLH at 154, but DLH pushed the weight up to 156 just so Hopkins would put his MW titles on the line.

[Dynamite Kid]

[QUOTE=Agentsmith;7238272][QUOTE]Jones moved up to fighter bigger fighters, while Hopkins moved down to fight smaller fighters, so Jones in my opinion should always be ranked higher.

Although id agree a criticism that can be leveled at Hopkins is that a part of his greatness is attributed to his longevity later in his career.[QUOTE]


Marvin Hagler fought big men like Juan Roldan,Fully Obell, Sibson (huge) but no one gave him the problems the smaller Leonard, Duran did, reason? Duran, Leonard were elite where as the aforementioned were just solid fighters.

If the fighters you beat dont achieve anything in the weight class you beat them like Winky and Pavlik, then the wins are good but not great. Winky was Hopkins wbc mandatory I believe but Hopkins chose to fight a green Taylor instead. He lost to Jones and Calzaghe so im not sure why you are listing them? Johnson, Joppy and Echols were good fighters but not great fighters, none of them are ATG or even HOFers.

Well Duran achieved what as a Middleweight? I did not say Pavlik was a great win i said it was a solid win, Wink walks around at 175 as Roy Jones has stated, plus when all said and done he is/was an elite! fighter. Again i did not call Johnson, Joppy and Echols great wins, infact i specifically stated they were solid wins.

Where do you rate him on the ATG list? Also why has he only ever fought one bigger fighter, if you can class Tarver as a bigger fighter seeing as how Hopkins pro debut was at lhw?

I dont have an ATG list because they are too contentious. I rank him above Roy Jones though.

[General Zod]

DLH's body was more suited for MW than Duran. And Hopkins fought him at a catchweight of 156 lbs. DLH weighed in at 155, 1 lb over the JMW limit. DLH was the #1 rated JMW before "losing" to a prime HOF bound Shane Mosley under the influence of EPO, HGH, and the Clear. DLH was also clearly out of shape for the Sturm fight, and in top condition for the Hopkins fight. DLH also weighed 160 for Sturm.

It doesn't matter if he was in shape or not, he lost that fight and was given a gift decision. His record at mw should be 0-2, hardly the record of a great mw. Duran after losing to Hagler went on to beat Barkely, DLH after losing to Hopkins went back down to jmw.

Hopkins natural size compared to Hagler's size cannot be used against him in regards to greatness in 1 specific weight division. It only has legitimacy in rating them p4p, then again, Hopkins actually moved up and won the Ring LHW title while Hagler retired as a MW.

Not really a valid arguement, Hopkins pro debut was at lhw, then he moved down to have 20 fights at smw, before moving down again to mw. Hagler as a amateur was a jmw before moving up to mw. He spent his entire career fighting guys his own size, something which Hopkins didnt. Hopkins resume at lhw is also completely shocking after beating Tarver he has now faced 4 blown ups and is ducking the no 2 lhw Dawson.

And seriously, there was nothing illegal in the hand wraps. The manner in which they were wrapped was the issue. Different commissions have different rules when it comes to wrapping. ****m Richardson has witnessed both the Tito and the Margarito hand wraps. He's on record stating that what Margarito did was far worse than what Tito did.

Bouie Fisher:
I tell you, Ike. They have been getting away with that for a long time. I sent my people to Trinidad's locker room to make sure everything was right. When they got there they came back to me and told me that Trinidad's left hand was wrapped before they got there. So, I had to go over to his dressing room myself, this is my business and I have been doing it for over 50 years. When I got there I told them to unwrap the hand and do it over because we need to see the hand being wrapped. They refused to unwrap the hands so I told them I guess the fight will not happen then, we can reschedule to another date. The officials came in and said we don't have time to do this over. I told them, well we must do this right or no fight. They know the rules, no tape on the skin or tape on the ankle. His left hand was heavy just like your camera.
http://www.east side boxing.com/Interview-Fisher.html

Naz richardson has changed his story over the years, back in the days it was more in lines with Bouies now he plays it down.

Hopkins also fought larger Middleweights, few were bigger than him,but he fought them. As stated before it doesn't really matter, Hopkins moved up to LHW, Hagler didn't.

Tarver, Pavlik, Holmes, and Mercado are all at least 6'2. And while guys like Echols weren't that tall, he was a very built man.

Since beating Tarver in 2006, why hasnt fought any lhw's?