If Ali never came back...

[Stoppage]

... after being banned from boxing for not participating in the Vietnam War, how would you rate him on an all-time heavyweight list?

[cooper5]

It would be good because beating the likes of Liston and retiring undefeated but the comeback made believers out of many doubters, so not real high in the all time rankings.

[GJC]

Very interesting question this with so many imponderables to it.
Ali was so dominant and at his peak around 67 so we would always have harked back and wondered how great he may have become, although we still do speculate on his missing years.
I think it might be a case of how we view other fighters if we take Ali's comeback out rather than his.
I think that people might overlook is that in 67 Ali's chin was still an unknown quantity, people didn't think he was chinny but there were doubts. Him getting up from Frazier and standing up to Foreman and Shavers eliminated those doubts. Without those fights people who believe that fighters such as Tyson and Marciano maybe even Dempsey might have beaten Ali might be making a stronger case on these forums.
Also Frazier and Foreman's careers could have been totally different, take the Ali win off Fraziers resume and it looks a lot skinnier. Foreman would have been a dominant champion by the time Holmes came along, also if Foreman had cleaned out the division Holmes might have been thrown in a little before he was ready. Who is to say that Foreman might not have blasted out Holmes and we would be talking about what an unfulfilled talent Holmes was?
I like those "what if" alternative history books and this question does open up those kind of possibilities.
To answer the question my HW rating always have Ali at 1 and Louis at 2, if we drew a line under Ali's career in 67 then Louis certainly is at number one.
I think there is enough there by 67 for Ali to still be in top 10 but would have to think whereabouts.

[Sugarj]

Great post GJC, I couldn't have wrote it better myself.

[Calilloyd]

Very interesting question this with so many imponderables to it.
Ali was so dominant and at his peak around 67 so we would always have harked back and wondered how great he may have become, although we still do speculate on his missing years.
I think it might be a case of how we view other fighters if we take Ali's comeback out rather than his.
I think that people might overlook is that in 67 Ali's chin was still an unknown quantity, people didn't think he was chinny but there were doubts. Him getting up from Frazier and standing up to Foreman and Shavers eliminated those doubts. Without those fights people who believe that fighters such as Tyson and Marciano maybe even Dempsey might have beaten Ali might be making a stronger case on these forums.
Also Frazier and Foreman's careers could have been totally different, take the Ali win off Fraziers resume and it looks a lot skinnier. Foreman would have been a dominant champion by the time Holmes came along, also if Foreman had cleaned out the division Holmes might have been thrown in a little before he was ready. Who is to say that Foreman might not have blasted out Holmes and we would be talking about what an unfulfilled talent Holmes was?
I like those "what if" alternative history books and this question does open up those kind of possibilities.
To answer the question my HW rating always have Ali at 1 and Louis at 2, if we drew a line under Ali's career in 67 then Louis certainly is at number one.
I think there is enough there by 67 for Ali to still be in top 10 but would have to think whereabouts.

Excellent response and I can't think of anything to add.

[bojangles1987]

He'd still be damn high and have more of a mythical reputation, but he wouldn't be as high I don't think. Many of the moments that made him the legend he is regarded as now came once he come back. Can you imagine Ali never stepping in the ring with Joe Frazier?

[RightCross94]

Very interesting question this with so many imponderables to it.
Ali was so dominant and at his peak around 67 so we would always have harked back and wondered how great he may have become, although we still do speculate on his missing years.
I think it might be a case of how we view other fighters if we take Ali's comeback out rather than his.
I think that people might overlook is that in 67 Ali's chin was still an unknown quantity, people didn't think he was chinny but there were doubts. Him getting up from Frazier and standing up to Foreman and Shavers eliminated those doubts. Without those fights people who believe that fighters such as Tyson and Marciano maybe even Dempsey might have beaten Ali might be making a stronger case on these forums.
Also Frazier and Foreman's careers could have been totally different, take the Ali win off Fraziers resume and it looks a lot skinnier. Foreman would have been a dominant champion by the time Holmes came along, also if Foreman had cleaned out the division Holmes might have been thrown in a little before he was ready. Who is to say that Foreman might not have blasted out Holmes and we would be talking about what an unfulfilled talent Holmes was?
I like those "what if" alternative history books and this question does open up those kind of possibilities.
To answer the question my HW rating always have Ali at 1 and Louis at 2, if we drew a line under Ali's career in 67 then Louis certainly is at number one.
I think there is enough there by 67 for Ali to still be in top 10 but would have to think whereabouts.

Wow, awesome post with some interesting speculation about not only what Ali's legacy would have been like, but the legacies of Foreman, Frazier and Holmes

[GJC]

Thankyou gentlemen for the kind comments on my rambling post.
Not sure if others agree but I have always had the view that the result of a fight is sometimes a case of wrong or right opponent at wrong or right time. Also this then impacts on both fighters subsequant careers. i.e. Did Ali totally screw Foreman's mind so the Young loss became inevitable and without it Foreman would have just blasted Young out? Maybe it might have been Witherspoon that ended a tired Foreman's reign? Think then a Tyson challenging a focassed un disilloussioned Witherspoon later?
Think it might be fun to do a few threads with that in mind i.e. alternative what if history? What would have happened if Turpin had successfully defended against Robinson etc etc?

[sonnyboyx2]

GJC.. IMO i thought Foreman beat Jimmy Young, i have watched the fight quite a few times over the years and always have Foreman winning.. Randolph Turpin was accused of **** only hours before his rematch with Robinson and went into the ring with those accusations on his mind, they was dropped the next day but i often wonder how their rematch would have unfolded if a 100% focused Turpin entered the ring that night.

On this subject of where would pre1967 Ali be rated... Muhammad Ali was not the greatest of all time - Cassius Clay was

[GJC]

GJC.. IMO i thought Foreman beat Jimmy Young, i have watched the fight quite a few times over the years and always have Foreman winning.. Randolph Turpin was accused of **** only hours before his rematch with Robinson and went into the ring with those accusations on his mind, they was dropped the next day but i often wonder how their rematch would have unfolded if a 100% focused Turpin entered the ring that night.

On this subject of where would pre1967 Ali be rated... Muhammad Ali was not the greatest of all time - Cassius Clay was

Got to say I have not seen Young Foreman in years, as memory serves didn't Young drop Foreman, that probably swung it for him wouldn't be the first time. Turpin wasn't right that night, been all sorts of rumours through the years on why but even with all that going on he still wasn't far off beating SRR. Yes know what you are saying re Ali Clay