Why is Duran considered the greatest LW?

[BennyST]

Duran did have some good wins but Kobayashi, Marcel, Fernandez, Viruet, Buchanan, De Jesus are good wins rather than spectacular wins imo.

Viruet does have a win over Escalera & Fernandez does hold a win over Arguello, that said Kobayashi got destroyed by Wilfredo Gomez & Argullo beat him comfortably enough. Fernandez win over Arguello is a win but i cant help but think if the fight had been 15 rounds instead of 10 that Arguello would of been on the way to stopping him, he was all over him at the end.

The way Duran fought at LW tells me that if he was fighting top top! caliber opposition that he would not have been as effective doing what he used to do, De Jesus one of the best fighters he fought made him pay twice for his recklessness , it would of been interesting to see him fight someone like Mosley, Sweet Pea like that.


I think Pea & Mosley would beat Duran at LW, controversial but i do.

Wrong Kobayashi mate.

Just out of curiosity, what is a spectacular win if these guys aren't? Does the fighter have to be famous and brilliant instead of just brilliant?

Marcel had an undefeated title reign beating Sammy Serrano (HOF), Alfredo Mercano, Bernado Caraballo, Antonio Gomez, Kuniaki Shibata (though he was brutally screwed over and only got the draw in Japan) and Arguello (HOF) in his last fight before retiring. He went undefeated from 1968 to 1974 with only Duran beating him in that time. But, there was also one decision that went against him in a non-title fight in which he fought in Venezuela against Leonel Hernandez in his hometown and was also robbed badly from the reports. Hernandez was a very fine fighter though nonetheless. Marcel was a super slick fighter, very quick, great lead right like Mayweather's.

Buchanan beat Ismael Laguna twice (HOF), Carlos Ortiz (HOF), Donato Paduano, Jim Watt, Carlos Hernandez (nominated for HOF this year), Ruben Navarro etc etc. That's about as good a fighter, and win, as you can get.

Then you have De Jesus.... Ahh, screw it, I can't be bothered.

Anyway.....He seems to be one of those fighters that some, like you and Wpink take an intense dislike to. Well, Wpink does only because Leonard lost to him.

Let me ask this? Where do you have Floyd Mayweather as a 130 in the history of that division?

[TheGreatA]

I wouldn't say Dynamite Kid "intensely dislikes" Duran. I can see why one would think that Duran gets overrated, especially when some people put him in their top 5 p4p.

The Kobayashi Duran fought was indeed not the Kobayashi Gomez and Arguello fought. Hiroshi Kobayashi whom Duran fought was the two-time undisputed WBC & WBA super featherweight champion of the world, reigning for 3 years, while Royal Kobayashi was a decent 122/126 lb contender at best who held a belt for a month. I don't know if the two were related, flyweight champ Koji and Royal Kobayashi were brothers.

Here's Hiroshi Kobayashi fighting the WBA featherweight title holder Shozo Saijo in a non-title bout:


Hiroshi in red.

[Dynamite Kid]

Wrong Kobayashi mate.

Just out of curiosity, what is a spectacular win if these guys aren't? Does the fighter have to be famous and brilliant instead of just brilliant?

Marcel had an undefeated title reign beating Sammy Serrano (HOF), Alfredo Mercano, Bernado Caraballo, Antonio Gomez, Kuniaki Shibata (though he was brutally screwed over and only got the draw in Japan) and Arguello (HOF) in his last fight before retiring. He went undefeated from 1968 to 1974 with only Duran beating him in that time. But, there was also one decision that went against him in a non-title fight in which he fought in Venezuela against Leonel Hernandez in his hometown and was also robbed badly from the reports. Hernandez was a very fine fighter though nonetheless. Marcel was a super slick fighter, very quick, great lead right like Mayweather's.

Buchanan beat Ismael Laguna twice (HOF), Carlos Ortiz (HOF), Donato Paduano, Jim Watt, Carlos Hernandez (nominated for HOF this year), Ruben Navarro etc etc. That's about as good a fighter, and win, as you can get.

Then you have De Jesus.... Ahh, screw it, I can't be bothered.

Anyway.....He seems to be one of those fighters that some, like you and Wpink take an intense dislike to. Well, Wpink does only because Leonard lost to him.

Let me ask this? Where do you have Floyd Mayweather as a 130 in the history of that division?

Dude i have nothing against Duran at all, its just i think he gets overrated and when someone comes out and says he would KO Sweet Pea and that a fight with Pea would be no contest, then you can see why i would think he gets overrated, not to mention some people having him ranked number 4 ATG, now im one that thinks a lot of Duran's losses came because he was out of shape most of the time, or because he had 70+ fights (i think)by the time he fought Laing, Benitez, that said whether i can make legit excuses for those defeat, they still happened and must be take into consideration because its not like Duran was shot, albeit he probably was starting to slide!! and he was not particularly old, old!

If i intensly disliked Duran why would i sight Viuret's win over Escalera & Vilomar Fernandez's win over Arguello? I also said "I think Duran has a lot better record at LW than he gets credit for "


Im not a Mayweather fan, its not like im inclined to underated Duran because i like Mayweather. I actually like Duran and dislike Mayweather so....

I must admit head to head i dont think he would beat Mosley or Whitaker but im obviously willing to concede that Duran could very well beat both of them and i might be flat out wrong, that said me myself i would pick against him there, but for that guy to say Whitaker would be no contest or he would knock Pea out is crazy.

BTW Thanks Great A

[Benncollinsaad]

Wrong Kobayashi mate.

Just out of curiosity, what is a spectacular win if these guys aren't? Does the fighter have to be famous and brilliant instead of just brilliant?

Marcel had an undefeated title reign beating Sammy Serrano (HOF), Alfredo Mercano, Bernado Caraballo, Antonio Gomez, Kuniaki Shibata (though he was brutally screwed over and only got the draw in Japan) and Arguello (HOF) in his last fight before retiring. He went undefeated from 1968 to 1974 with only Duran beating him in that time. But, there was also one decision that went against him in a non-title fight in which he fought in Venezuela against Leonel Hernandez in his hometown and was also robbed badly from the reports. Hernandez was a very fine fighter though nonetheless. Marcel was a super slick fighter, very quick, great lead right like Mayweather's.

Buchanan beat Ismael Laguna twice (HOF), Carlos Ortiz (HOF), Donato Paduano, Jim Watt, Carlos Hernandez (nominated for HOF this year), Ruben Navarro etc etc. That's about as good a fighter, and win, as you can get.

Then you have De Jesus.... Ahh, screw it, I can't be bothered.

Anyway.....He seems to be one of those fighters that some, like you and Wpink take an intense dislike to. Well, Wpink does only because Leonard lost to him.

Let me ask this? Where do you have Floyd Mayweather as a 130 in the history of that division?

Well said mate. TDK likes to talk out of his ass sometimes. But you gotta forgive him, he's still learning.

[BennyST]

I wouldn't say Dynamite Kid "intensely dislikes" Duran. I can see why one would think that Duran gets overrated, especially when some people put him in their top 5 p4p.

The Kobayashi Duran fought was indeed not the Kobayashi Gomez and Arguello fought. Hiroshi Kobayashi whom Duran fought was the two-time undisputed WBC & WBA super featherweight champion of the world, reigning for 3 years, while Royal Kobayashi was a decent 122/126 lb contender at best who held a belt for a month. I don't know if the two were related, flyweight champ Koji and Royal Kobayashi were brothers.

Here's Hiroshi Kobayashi fighting the WBA featherweight title holder Shozo Saijo in a non-title bout:


Hiroshi in red.

No, you're right, he doesn't. I apologise DK, that was a general overreaction to some others that come on here and **** out the ol' "Most overrated fighter ever. He got 20 losses and got beat by Robbie Simms and Kirkland Laing. Mayweather would own dat ass! Haterz. LAMO. pwn!" or some others that can't get over certain issues.

He's not a top five ATG. Somewhat undisciplined for that sadly. Could have been quite easily but lost fights he should have won due to his excessive appetite for partying. I have him inside the top ten in general but then again, I don't really have a specific list.

However, when you have a fighter that beat the great champions Ernesto Marcel in 1970 at 130 pounds and then Jorge Castro in 1997 at 168 pounds, as well as the many, many others in between, it's pretty hard to say he's overrated. Look overall at his wins, accomplishments and resume and you'll be hard pressed to find another fighter that tops it. I know you already know all this.

On his LW record. It isn't the greatest record you can find, however, when you actually know who he's fought there and have seen them fight, as I'm quite sure you do and have GA and DK, you understand why he's so highly regarded. The fighters he beat there were not just good, they were great. No, he didn't have a famous name fighter like an Ali, or Leonard because during the seventies the names were basically shadowed by Ali and the HW division and the best fighters at LW were mostly not American. Doesn't mean they weren't as good. Go watch their fights. As has already been said a few times, it doesn't get much better than beating a top ten LW in Buchanan. Most experts will have Buchanan around the top ten ATG's at LW.

I think most people though, because of the time and HW division, forget that Duran/De Jesus III was one of the most hyped, lightweight title, unification fights of all time. People forget that because everything was about Ali and his fights with Frazier, Shavers, Norton etc.

Watch Ishimatsu take apart Rodolfo Gonzalez. Watch Kobayashi take apart Numata. Watch Buchanan beat Laguna and Marcel beat Arguello, or Thompson KO Carlos Gimenez etc etc. You realise these guys were as good as any champion fighting today not named Mayweather or Pac. Despite that though, if you compare his record to anyone else it is quite easily better the the very large majority of most fighters in history, bar a small few. For a guy that did what would be considered a legendary run at LW alone to then go and do what he did after, it surprises me that people would call him overrated. That's just me though.

I find it laughable that someone would say "He didn't beat a single great fighter at LW" then go on to call Mayweather the greatest fighter at 130, or name Pea a better fighter at LW or Hopkins the best at MW.

There is no difference in quality of opposition, in fact quite the opposite. The only difference is in the name value of opposition. Always the way really though.

Hey DK, I agree that Whitaker has a great chance to beat Duran. I don't really agree on Mosley TBH, but you know....

[Dynamite Kid]

Well said mate. TDK likes to talk out of his ass sometimes. But you gotta forgive him, he's still learning.

Oh god!!

This **** does not even watch Boxing yet comes in here to speak about fights he has never ever seen!!!

How lame can you get? what is the point in talking about fights you have never seen, kinda defeats the object of coming to post in here doesn't it Benncollinsaad?

[Dynamite Kid]

No, you're right, he doesn't. I apologise DK, that was a general overreaction to some others that come on here and **** out the ol' "Most overrated fighter ever. He got 20 losses and got beat by Robbie Simms and Kirkland Laing. Mayweather would own dat ass! Haterz. LAMO. pwn!" or some others that can't get over certain issues.

He's not a top five ATG. Somewhat undisciplined for that sadly. Could have been quite easily but lost fights he should have won due to his excessive appetite for partying. I have him inside the top ten in general but then again, I don't really have a specific list.

However, when you have a fighter that beat the great champions Ernesto Marcel in 1970 at 130 pounds and then Jorge Castro in 1997 at 168 pounds, as well as the many, many others in between, it's pretty hard to say he's overrated. Look overall at his wins, accomplishments and resume and you'll be hard pressed to find another fighter that tops it. I know you already know all this.

On his LW record. It isn't the greatest record you can find, however, when you actually know who he's fought there and have seen them fight, as I'm quite sure you do and have GA, you understand why he's so highly regarded. The fighters he beat there were not just good, they were great. No, he didn't have a famous name fighter because during the seventies the names were basically shadowed by Ali and the HW division.

I think most people though, because of the time and HW division, forget that Duran/De Jesus III was one of the most hyped, lightweight title, unification fights of all time. People forget that because everything was about Ali and his fights with Frazier, Shavers, Norton etc.

Watch Ishimatsu take apart Rodolfo Gonzalez. Watch Kobayashi take apart Numata. Watch Buchanan beat Laguna and Marcel beat Arguello, or Thompson KO Carlos Gimenez etc etc. You realise these guys were as good as any champion fighting today not named Mayweather or Pac. Despite that though, if you compare his record to anyone else it is quite easily better the the very large majority of most fighters in history, bar a small few. For a guy that did what would be considered a legendary run at LW alone to then go and do what he did after, it surprises me that people would call him overrated. That's just me though.

I find it laughable that someone would say "He didn't beat a single great fighter at LW" then go on to call Mayweather the greatest fighter at 130, or name Pea a better fighter at LW or Hopkins the best at MW.

There is no difference in quality of opposition, in fact quite the opposite. The only difference is in the name value of opposition. Always the way really though.

Hey DK, I agree that Whitaker has a great chance to beat Duran. I don't really agree on Mosley TBH, but you know....

Great post and very informative, thanks for that.

[Benncollinsaad]

Oh god!!

This **** does not even watch Boxing yet comes in here to speak about fights he has never ever seen!!!

How lame can you get? what is the point in talking about fights you have never seen, kinda defeats the object of coming to post in here doesn't it Benncollinsaad?

Shut up *****, I don't even spend much time here anymore. I go to a forum where they REALLY know something about boxing and appreciate true boxers! And I watch fights all the time, you poor pathetic fuq.

[Dynamite Kid]

Shut up *****, I don't even spend much time here anymore. I go to a forum where they REALLY know something about boxing and appreciate true boxers! And I watch fights all the time, you poor pathetic fuq.

Well then you will have added to the quality of the discussion in here by staying out, its probably the most productive thing you have done since first coming in here.

[Benncollinsaad]

Well then you will have added to the quality of the discussion in here by staying out, its probably the most productive thing you have done since first coming in here.

Yep. It suits us both fine!