Tyson/Holyfield debate

[Benny Leonard]

Benny Leonard

Sounds like another load of excuses and BS to me.

What's B.S. and excuses?

[VibesMan]

Cooper never knocked Holyfield out but Douglas knocked Mike out. Dont give me all the BS about Douglas being unbeatable that night, Douglas was no more talented than someone like Tony Tucker.


They both had poor performances against Douglas/ Cooper and im willing to concede Mike was not in top shape but lets be fair to Holyfield to, he did not get knocked out and although he went down he was not in danger of being stopped.

Holyfield knew how to fight Mike Tyson. Push him back claim the centre of the ring and take him deep and drowned him.

Tyson was always getting pep talks inbetween rounds from Rooney, even in his prime, that tells me he needed to pump him up all the while so he did not lose heart, he was always hitting on the break & after the bell to, that tells me his discipline was not all that in his prime either, and that if he had behind in those fights he might have imploded the way he did against Holyfield. Tyson was always!! a head case who lost heart it just needed exposing and its like the old saying goes the truth will always find you in the ring.


Holyfield takes Mike's heart, unless he does not score a KO and the more they fight the more Holyfield adapts to his style, if Mike & Holy fought 10 times Mike might knock Evander out 1/2 but Holyfield would win more because he would adapt because he was a better fighter, Tyson was a puncher thats it, that is why he cant fight on the backfoot or adapt like Holy.

Thanks for your thoughts - No excuses being made re the actual fight.

Just to clarify - My question was around how Mike fares specifically against Holyfield of 91 who struggled with Foreman/Holmes and to a degree Cooper?

If your quote re Holy beating Mike 8 or 9 times out of 10 relates to any stage of their career at any given time then fair enough.

I still believe if Mike ever could beat him it's in that window of time before he took on Bowe.

[RightCross94]

God's sake. Both Mike and evander were past their best when they fought (esp. Evander) but Mike always had the fragile mentality of a bully, Evander would do to Mike exactly what he did when they fought for real. He was stronger and tougher than Mike. Hold Tyson, catch him coming in, counter him as he throws those punches he puts all his weight into. Mike breaks mentally just like he did in the real fight.


This BS of "prime tyson" being unbeatable needs to ****ing stop, it's just tired and boring. The man got Knocked the **** out by Douglas in his prime, and made into a ***** by a 34 year old post Bowe triliogy Evander. And then embarassed more times by journeyman such as Kevin McBride. Even though he was shot then, still.

[RightCross94]

Thanks for your thoughts - No excuses being made re the actual fight.

Just to clarify - My question was around how Mike fares specifically against Holyfield of 91 who struggled with Foreman/Holmes and to a degree Cooper?

If your quote re Holy beating Mike 8 or 9 times out of 10 relates to any stage of their career at any given time then fair enough.

I still believe if Mike ever could beat him it's in that window of time before he took on Bowe.

and my question is how can you have Evander losing to Mike, who was stopped by Douglas.

[Benny Leonard]

God's sake. Both Mike and evander were past their best when they fought (esp. Evander) but Mike always had the fragile mentality of a bully, Evander would do to Mike exactly what he did when they fought for real. He was stronger and tougher than Mike. Hold Tyson, catch him coming in, counter him as he throws those punches he puts all his weight into. Mike breaks mentally just like he did in the real fight.


This BS of "prime tyson" being unbeatable needs to ****ing stop, it's just tired and boring. The man got Knocked the **** out by Douglas in his prime, and made into a ***** by a 34 year old post Bowe triliogy Evander. And then embarassed more times by journeyman such as Kevin McBride. Even though he was shot then, still.

Agree

Disagree. Prime or maybe I'll just stick with "Peak" is marked by your best. What got Tyson to unify the titles and what was missing when he lost them?

Floyd Patterson to Mike Tyson upon being asked after the Douglas loss what advice he would give Tyson (in order to get it back): "Remember what got you there"

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THE SCHOLAR CONSIDERS:
An Interview With Boxing Historian Herbert G. Goldman
By Katherine Dunn


Another man-- a shame what’s happened to him, and I’d say the only man who could have beaten him eventually did beat him, and that was himself—Mike Tyson. Now Mike Tyson’s style—talking about a boxer learning from boxers of the past—and it’s amazing that more has not been made of this. Mike Tyson’s style is Jack Dempsey, completely. The way he comes in quickly with a bob and weave, ducks down low and comes up with a smashing left hook to the larger man’s head and face, that’s Jack Dempsey. When Tyson turned pro he even came into the ring with the sides of his head shaven in emulation of Jack Dempsey. There is no doubt about this. No socks, low shoes, black trunks. This was a young man who studied old fight films like crazy. And he found that the style of Jack Dempsey was more conducive to his own abilities than any other style. And that’s what he developed.

KD -- I always felt that Tyson was a small heavyweight and he was often misunderstood and under-rated in terms of the level of genuine skill that he brought into the ring.

HG -- That’s right. A lot of people did not understand what they were watching when they saw Mike Tyson. He was not some slugger as such.

KD -- He was not a super-power in terms of his physical strength

HG -- Oh no. One thing about Mike Tyson that I don’t think a lot of people understand because of, let’s say his psychological-social problems, a lot of people think he’s some kind of ****** brute. He’s not. He happens to be, as far as I can see-- and I don’t know the man but I have had a couple of conversations with him-- an intelligent young man. He’s probably one of the most intelligent fighters, certainly in terms of boxing, that we’ve seen. His emulation of the Jack Dempsey’s style. His knowledge of boxing history is considerable, by the way, and when you listen to him, this is not a ****** man. He’s a very misunderstood boxer, and people also do not understand that his skills eroded after a certain period. People will say Ah he was never anything,. They start to question him all the way back. No. He peaked when he knocked out Michael Spinks in the first round. But beginning about a year after that he really started to go down hill.

KD -- That was a period when he had separated from Rooney, his remaining D’Amato trainer, and he no longer had a real trainer who understood his style.

HG -- Right. Tyson was a fighter who needed a certain edge. He needed to be on edge. And when he lost that he lost a tremendous amount. He still has too much power and over-all ability for ninety or ninety-five percent of all the fighters out there. There’s no question about that. But at his peak I can’t imagine—and I say this with all respect and deference for Evander Holyfield—but at his peak I can’t imagine Tyson being defeated by Holyfield. At his peak he would have been a terrific fight even for the peak Muhammad Ali.

[VibesMan]

and my question is how can you have Evander losing to Mike, who was stopped by Douglas.

Ok. One last time.

Post Bowe Holyfield beats Tyson all day long.

I just happen to believe PRE BOWE Holyfield looked far less resistant than The Real Deal we came to see later in his career.

All this "Douglas beat Mike and Vander beat Douglas therefore how can Mike beat Vander" is toss. You can name any number of fight triangles where that means nothing. Douglas fell over against Holfyfield.

This isn't just a thread desperately trying to convince myself Mike could have beat Vander. I'm more interested in what may have happened to both fighters careers if Mike had fought him in 91 and won?

I see the Holyfield defeat as an integral part of Tyson falling apart as a person and a fighter and just wondered if things could have turned out differently for either of them.