Did Liston take a dive in Ali 2?

[Mersey]

But Why would he bother to fake it like that. Do what the rest did...lie down and play dead.

Liston was drunk at that point and was trying to regain his balance. Everything is slow and moving on him so he is trying to focus in regaining his equilibrium. And then he did get back up...so why even try to get up?
Even when he was falling down, he stuck out his arms to break his fall or try to keep his balance to stay up.

At least that is what I think.

I know, the whole thing is a mystery to me. Why would he do what he did? I have no idea to be honest.

It just doesn't look right when he tries to get up and falls back down again. It's not like he colapses to the ground like Berbick did. He rolls over slowly. Maybe he was trying to make it look more realistic by trying to get up again?

[Benny Leonard]

I know, the whole thing is a mystery to me. Why would he do what he did? I have no idea to be honest.

It just doesn't look right when he tries to get up and falls back down again. It's not like he colapses to the ground like Berbick did. He rolls over slowly. Maybe he was trying to make it look more realistic by trying to get up again?

Same effect as being drunk...and it could depend on the person.

[mickey malone]

yes... Walcott walks across the ring to the timekeeper very hesitantly then comes back over and picks up the count on Liston even tho he has been on the floor for around 12 seconds, he does not tell Ali who is standing over Liston shouting `Get up` to go to a neutral corner, he waves the fighters on then stops the fight.. i cannot recall any referee ever doing what Walcott done, IMO if Liston took a dive Walcott was in on it

Sound account!... And Ali wouldn't be yelling at him to 'Get up' for nothing..

It suggests that Ali himself, did not consider the punch worthy of registering a KO..
It could also be the reason why the follow up left, flew way over the top of a canvas bound Liston, as if to suggest that Ali didn't expect to see him down there..

I don't really have an answer for Walcott's actions.. Just very very odd..
Does anyone know how many fights he officiated in ?

[Benny Leonard]

Sound account!... And Ali wouldn't be yelling at him to 'Get up' for nothing..

It suggests that Ali himself, did not consider the punch worthy of registering a KO..
It could also be the reason why the follow up left, flew way over the top of a canvas bound Liston, as if to suggest that Ali didn't expect to see him down there..

I don't really have an answer for Walcott's actions.. Just very very odd..
Does anyone know how many fights he officiated in ?

Yes, but how could Ali know that Sonny even saw the punching coming?
It's the punch that you didn't see that hurts you the most, right?

6:37 start to finish

[mickey malone]

Ref: Benny Leonard

I agree with regard to not seeing the punch coming, but you don't expect someone like Sonny Liston to roll around like a soccer star..

[sonnyboyx2]

very strange series of events in this fight and we will never know what really happened, however if you watch the documentary "The Final Round" about George Chuvalo you will see a totally different camera angle to this KO and Chuvalo is in the 3rd row ringside, Chuvalo says the punch would not have squashed a g****, he then gets in the ring and starts argueing and scuffling with Muhammad Ali.. From Chuvalo`s point of view `it was a fix` BTW that Documentary is Fantastic viewing

[Benny Leonard]

Ref: Benny Leonard

I agree with regard to not seeing the punch coming, but you don't expect someone like Sonny Liston to roll around like a soccer star..

very true. I would have found it shocking as well if I was living in that era and I grew up with Liston...but strange and shocking things have happened throughout boxing history.

Maybe age had a part to play in this as well. Liston wasn't exactly "prime" and the ability to react properly can decline with age...as well as the ability to take a punch...especially if not trained properly both mentally and physically.

[BKM-]

Thanks for the high quality clips being posted. Great stuff.

I don't believe Liston took a dive. But what I still want to know is, I consider dives 10 times worse than stoppage losses. It seems to me like the believers don't.

[Stoppage]

I think it was fixed. Maybe it was a real knockdown but I don't think it was a real knockout.

Liston almost rose up and then went back down again. Looked as if he was acting, in my opinion. After the count of ten, he got up while Walcott went to check the time. He looked as if was ready to fight again.

We'll never know, for sure, but I think it was fixed.

[Obama]

No, Liston didn't take a dive. He was waiting for a count so he could maximize his recover time. Walcott didn't give him one so he didn't get up. Then Walcott let's someone else outside of the ring tell him the fight's over and waves it off without counting to 10. Walcott never reffed a fight again.