ATG's: Best technical pressure fighter of any era?

[GJC]

As I am still waiting for the answer to this question.

Every champion in history can be accused of not making certain fights on theie way up. Folley offered no upside. Win and you beat an old man, lose and you lost to an old man. WHY should Frazier have taken that fight?

If we're smart, neither of us will hold our breath waiting.

lol, think the problem is that people look at a fighters record then who was around at that time then put two and two together and make 5.

[BennyST]

I dont know. I only watched the fight a few weeks ago, great performance by Duran, but no dancing by Leonard! It wasn't like Duran's pressure was ridiculously intense for all 15 rounds. Even in the rounds that Leonard won there was nothing fleet footed. It was a close fight remember. Leonard was overconfident, couldn't believe a blown up lightweight could be stronger than him. Insults to Leonard's wife probably stoked the fire too. Hell, Duran played Leonard like Van Halen played guitar, clever chap!

I'm no nuthugger, Duran deserved that first fight. I was so impressed with him. But Leonard's comments afterwards that he wanted to fight Duran in a return 'his way' indicated that he knew that he fell into the trap of a brawl with one of the best brawlers of all time (ha ha 'the brawl in Montreal'!). Leonard danced second time round for the vast majority of the fight. He didn't attempt this in the first fight.

If as you say Duran didn't let him do his 'fleet footed' work then I'm suprised it featured so prominently in Leonard's return fight strategy. Or what would Leonard have done, fight the same fight as the first time? Theres a good chance he'd have lost again. Leonard was no fool.

I do agree that Duran's lack of preparation contributed to his performance and retirement in the second fight. But I dont think a well prepared Duran would have been happy boxing a fleet footed Leonard, although I still think it would be another close fight.

Another post of the "Leonard fought Duran's fight!" type.

He didn't because that was how Leonard had fought in all of his pro fights up to that point. I don't mean to pick on you Sugar but this is wrong. Leonard fought as he did in the first Duran fight for 90% of his career. The way he fought in the second fight was the first time he had ever fought that way in his pro career. He would fight that same way rarely again in his whole career. Even against Hagler he didn't move so much and before the Duran fight he had absolutely never fought with so much movement throwing only one punch here and there and basically pot-shotting with the occasional flurry and combo.

The majority of his fights up to the first Duran fight were fought in exactly the same way but no one had been able to counter his speed or get inside so easily without getting hit by his flurrying combinations.

So, in actual fact it was the second fight in which Leonard changed his normal fight plan and not the first fight as is so commonly believed. That was how Leonard fought but he had simply never faced someone that was able to fight that way much better and by the half way point of the fight Leonard wouldn't have been able to move even if he had wanted to with all the body punishment he had taken up to that point.

Nonetheless, the myth of 'Leonard fighting Duran's fight' is wrong and should be dispelled. He simply met someone that he couldn't beat with his normal style and so had to change it for the second fight!

It's an odd myth as it is very easy to get his entire career set of fights up to the Duran fight (all of which I have watched many times, Leonard being my first favourite fighter) thus very easy to see that that is exactly how he fought in all of his fights. It is just that Duran was able to stay on him, dodge his combinations and get inside with his own jab, slipping Leonard's punches and moving up and down with his offense.

He changed his game plan in the second fight and won. Simple as that. He lost the first fight by fighting his fight against someone that was better at it than he was, and did screw with his mind making try to battle it out more and knock out Duran, but that is how he fought so many times up to that fight. Anyone that has seen all of his fights up to that point would know this really is how he fought.

The myth of Leonard as a boxer that just moved about and only worked off his jab is very false. He had a huge killer instinct and wanted to fight and for the majority of his career did exactly that. He would stalk an opponent, or wear him down, he would stand in and **** to the body or trade shots in close or he would take small lateral steps to get better angles for his combo's and would finish his opponents if they were hurt rapidly.

This has been discussed a lot though and funnily enough will never change the perception of Leonard as the classic moving boxer, instead of just a boxer/puncher. Most often the only time he moved a lot was when he was playing to the crowd or doing the 'Ali shuffle' but apart from that he would generally stand in front of his opponent or just use small steps in and out and to the side for his offensive attack.

[Sugarj]

Hi Benny,

Quote
'He didn't because that was how Leonard had fought in all of his pro fights up to that point. I don't mean to pick on you Sugar but this is wrong. Leonard fought as he did in the first Duran fight for 90% of his career. The way he fought in the second fight was the first time he had ever fought that way in his pro career. He would fight that same way rarely again in his whole career. Even against Hagler he didn't move so much and before the Duran fight he had absolutely never fought with so much movement throwing only one punch here and there and basically pot-shotting with the occasional flurry and combo.'


You clearly haven't watched the Hagler fight! Are you kidding??? Leonard not move much!!!!!! I watch Leonard fights regularly and my mind is not tainted with misty memories from 20 or 30 years ago. You are far out on this one.

I had some respect for your argument and can see your angle with Duran but you clearly hadn't read my follow up post regarding Leonard's increased use of a dancing style post Duran 1. Leonard always had fast feet, even before he adopted the dancing style of Duran 2, he could dart in, circle and retreat very well, its just that in Duran 2 he was more Ali esque.

He didn't half stand his ground in Duran 1! Nothing like the well schooled Olympic gold medalist! You make him sound like the flatfooted welterweight equivalent of Joe Louis before the second Duran fight which is not quite true.

I'm nobodies nuthugger I admire Duran and Leonard equally.

[Sugarj]

And here is my original follow up post:

Quote
'Leonard really didn't box fleet-footed very often. The Duran rematch and Hagler fight were exceptions, but usually he liked to fight flat-footed, maybe use some lateral movement, box in a very relax style behind his jab and then open up with combos and try to land his brilliant left hook.'

My answer:
You've got to admit though Leonard was usually a lot more defensive and mobile than he was the first time for Duran. Even when he wasn't dancing about he had great footspeed. He was no stationary target. I remember watching the first Duran fight many years ago and thinking early on 'whats up with Sugar Ray, hes getting knocked all over the ring?' Duran was so good, special! As Poet rightly said he'd give any welter in history a good fight that night.

I suppose on reflection Leonard's dancing was used more post Duran 1, he danced alot of the early rounds with Hearns, obviously the Hagler fight, but also the LaLonde and second Hearns fights had Leonard dancing a fair bit. I suppose early on the competition wasn't terrifying before Benitez.....and dancing 15 rounds with a defensive genius like Wilfredo could have made for a truely boring fight.

[Sugarj]

Oh and if you think that Leonard didn't dance until Duran 2 perhaps watching the Olympic final might change your mind, from four or so years previous!

He didn't need to use this well ingrained fleetfooted style early on in the pros, the competition wasn't too scary before Benitez, thereafter every opponent he had any fear of got the old dancing Leonard.

[TheGreatA]

Oh and if you think that Leonard didn't dance until Duran 2 perhaps watching the Olympic final might change your mind, from four or so years previous!

He didn't need to use this well ingrained fleetfooted style early on in the pros, the competition wasn't too scary before Benitez, thereafter every opponent he had any fear of got the old dancing Leonard.

He did dance in many of his other Olympic bouts but in the final he actually had his best success by outslugging his opponent.

Andres Almada was known as a huge puncher who had sent a couple of his opponents out on a stretcher previously to this fight. Leonard stayed inside Almada and effectively neutralized his long, powerful left hand.

[Sugarj]

Hi GreatA, I watched that this morning just to convince myself that I wasn't going crazy!

To be honest I thought he fought just as well on the outside. He varied his style a fair bit in this bout and had success either way. Perhaps a bit of both would have aided him in Duran 1, but that night rightly belongs to Duran.

On reflection I suppose having seen Leonard as fleet footed amateur, which rightly earned him the 'Sugar' nickname I may well be guilty of forgetting that he didn't dance quite so much when blowing out many of his early opponents in 1977 - 1979. I put this largely down to justifiable overconfidence and being overmatched, although Floyd Senior was not too shabby!

When Ray finally got his comeuppance (is that a word???) we saw alot more of his original dancing style........but only when he was well up for his opponents, think Hearns early on, Hearns 2, Hagler, LaLonde. Otherwise I suppose he was quite happy to **** out the likes of Bruce Finch without much movement.

[TheGreatA]

Hi GreatA, I watched that this morning just to convince myself that I wasn't going crazy!

To be honest I thought he fought just as well on the outside. He varied his style a fair bit in this bout and had success either way. Perhaps a bit of both would have aided him in Duran 1, but that night rightly belongs to Duran.

On reflection I suppose having seen Leonard as fleet footed amateur, which rightly earned him the 'Sugar' nickname I may well be guilty of forgetting that he didn't dance quite so much when blowing out many of his early opponents in 1977 - 1979. I put this largely down to justifiable overconfidence and being overmatched, although Floyd Senior was not too shabby!

When Ray finally got his comeuppance (is that a word???) we saw alot more of his original dancing style........but only when he was well up for his opponents, think Hearns early on, Hearns 2, Hagler, LaLonde. Otherwise I suppose he was quite happy to **** out the likes of Bruce Finch without much movement.

I agree that he was always great at "dancing" or outboxing his opponent but going to war wasn't beyond him. Against Almada he did indeed mix up both of his styles and confused his opponent.

He was a well-versed fighter and it wasn't just Bruce Finch he was knocking out, he also brawled with Wilfred Benitez, Ayub Kalule, Andy Price, Dave Green and of course Tommy Hearns in the later rounds. I can imagine him losing to Hearns and having even more trouble with Benitez and Kalule had he only chosen to box with them.

Going up against Duran, the feeling in Leonard's camp was that he could outfight Duran and knock him out. Might sound silly now but Duran was viewed as an aging former lightweight whose power had not moved up while Leonard had been knocking people out. I imagine they were watching Duran's fights against Wheatley, Nsubaga, Gonzalez, Heiar and Brooks instead of his brilliant performance against former champ Carlos Palomino.

I truly believe that the early body-beating, feinting and clinching prevented Leonard from changing up his style in the later rounds when this strategy proved to be unsuccessful for the most part (although it's not like Leonard didn't have his moments).

[RightCross94]

I always thought of Leonard as a varied and intelligent fighter who could adopt various styles, but i believe he was most comfortable going at his opponent, throwing fast and fluid combos, occasionally moving around to look for an angle or opening from which to work off....etc

[Dynamite Kid]

Another post of the "Leonard fought Duran's fight!" type.

He didn't because that was how Leonard had fought in all of his pro fights up to that point. I don't mean to pick on you Sugar but this is wrong. Leonard fought as he did in the first Duran fight for 90% of his career. The way he fought in the second fight was the first time he had ever fought that way in his pro career. He would fight that same way rarely again in his whole career. Even against Hagler he didn't move so much and before the Duran fight he had absolutely never fought with so much movement throwing only one punch here and there and basically pot-shotting with the occasional flurry and combo.

The majority of his fights up to the first Duran fight were fought in exactly the same way but no one had been able to counter his speed or get inside so easily without getting hit by his flurrying combinations.

So, in actual fact it was the second fight in which Leonard changed his normal fight plan and not the first fight as is so commonly believed. That was how Leonard fought but he had simply never faced someone that was able to fight that way much better and by the half way point of the fight Leonard wouldn't have been able to move even if he had wanted to with all the body punishment he had taken up to that point.

Nonetheless, the myth of 'Leonard fighting Duran's fight' is wrong and should be dispelled. He simply met someone that he couldn't beat with his normal style and so had to change it for the second fight!

It's an odd myth as it is very easy to get his entire career set of fights up to the Duran fight (all of which I have watched many times, Leonard being my first favourite fighter) thus very easy to see that that is exactly how he fought in all of his fights. It is just that Duran was able to stay on him, dodge his combinations and get inside with his own jab, slipping Leonard's punches and moving up and down with his offense.

He changed his game plan in the second fight and won. Simple as that. He lost the first fight by fighting his fight against someone that was better at it than he was, and did screw with his mind making try to battle it out more and knock out Duran, but that is how he fought so many times up to that fight. Anyone that has seen all of his fights up to that point would know this really is how he fought.

The myth of Leonard as a boxer that just moved about and only worked off his jab is very false. He had a huge killer instinct and wanted to fight and for the majority of his career did exactly that. He would stalk an opponent, or wear him down, he would stand in and **** to the body or trade shots in close or he would take small lateral steps to get better angles for his combo's and would finish his opponents if they were hurt rapidly.

This has been discussed a lot though and funnily enough will never change the perception of Leonard as the classic moving boxer, instead of just a boxer/puncher. Most often the only time he moved a lot was when he was playing to the crowd or doing the 'Ali shuffle' but apart from that he would generally stand in front of his opponent or just use small steps in and out and to the side for his offensive attack.

Agree.

When Leonard did Box more he did tended to use those tight little turns (Benitez fight) as apose to using the whole ring and circling ala Muhammad Ali.

Also i think what set the tone for the Duran (in the brawl in Montreal ) fight was early in the fight when Leonard threw a casual jab out there not expecting to get countered and Duran came straight over the top and hit him with a counter right hand that momentarily made his leg do a funny jig and from there on in Leonard never managed to establish any kind of rhythm.