Jack Dempsey GOAT

[Sugarj]

But Johnson had already fought McVey, Jeanette and Langford several times each plus exhibitions with each too, he must have been sick of the sight of them! Most were wins or 'no decisions' from memory but the newspaper writers rarely had Johnson being outfoxed! 'No decisions' were far, far more common than now. Plus he did get pittance for these tough fights!

The general public of the day wanted him to fight white guys even if the likes of McIntosh were offering good money for him to face his old friend Langford. He was much hated by white America at the time as you know.

[d0n]

The first time Johnson knocked down a white guy they stopped the fight and turned off the cameras. Nobody wanted to see a black guy beat up a white guy.

So at a point in time it was kinda hard for him to get a fight.

[Kid McCoy]

But Johnson had already fought McVey, Jeanette and Langford several times each plus exhibitions with each too, he must have been sick of the sight of them! Most were wins or 'no decisions' from memory but the newspaper writers rarely had Johnson being outfoxed! 'No decisions' were far, far more common than now. Plus he did get pittance for these tough fights!

The general public of the day wanted him to fight white guys even if the likes of McIntosh were offering good money for him to face his old friend Langford. He was much hated by white America at the time as you know.

I very much doubt Johnson paid much heed to what the general public of the day wanted. Jack Johnson did whatever Jack Johnson wanted to do. Note how most of the big offers were to be held outside of the US - Langford, McVea and Jeannette were all big draws in France and Australia.

Langford was barely a light-middleweight the only time he faced Johnson. He was far more dangerous by the time Johnson won the title, and busy flattening every top heavyweight contender who would face him. Given the substantial sums being offered, I see no reason for Johnson to have turned them down, other than he didn't fancy his chances against Langford.

[TheGreatA]

I very much doubt Johnson paid much heed to what the general public of the day wanted. Jack Johnson did whatever Jack Johnson wanted to do. Note how most of the big offers were to be held outside of the US - Langford, McVea and Jeannette were all big draws in France and Australia.

Langford was barely a light-middleweight the only time he faced Johnson. He was far more dangerous by the time Johnson won the title, and busy flattening every top heavyweight contender who would face him. Given the substantial sums being offered, I see no reason for Johnson to have turned them down, other than he didn't fancy his chances against Langford.

Johnson was probably confident that he could beat any man in the world but he was also smart enough to know that had he fought the best versions of Langford, McVea and Jeannette over and over again (as they fought each other), he would eventually have lost.

He was content on making decent money beating white hopes that had little chance of beating him, thus he remained champion for longer.

In my opinion both Dempsey and Johnson did their best work as contenders rather than champions. Both had rather poor if memorable reigns.

The first time Johnson knocked down a white guy they stopped the fight and turned off the cameras. Nobody wanted to see a black guy beat up a white guy.

So at a point in time it was kinda hard for him to get a fight.

It was the time he fought Tommy Burns, a white champion who gave him a chance. There is controversy over that though, some think that the round in which the cameras were stopped was actually an earlier round and that the filming continued.

I don't know too much about that myself.

[TheGreatA]

I actually came across an interesting quote on another forum that I had previously not read anywhere else. There was some talk about this on the thread about Jack Johnson:

"I have beaten Johnson, a man Jeffries has
been side stepping for months, ..."

-Marvin Hart

[Kid McCoy]

Johnson was probably confident that he could beat any man in the world but he was also smart enough to know that had he fought the best versions of Langford, McVea and Jeannette over and over again (as they fought each other), he would eventually have lost.

He was content on making decent money beating white hopes that had little chance of beating him, thus he remained champion for longer.

In my opinion both Dempsey and Johnson did their best work as contenders rather than champions. Both had rather poor if memorable reigns.

But it begs the question: how confident could he really have been to go seven years without once facing any of them? Even most of the white fighters he faced were not up to much. $30,000 was his stated minimum fee for a title defence, and time and again that sum was met only for him to reject it. He wasn't earning those sums against Battling Johnson and Moran.

Dempsey is rightly downgraded for failing to meet the #1 ranked contender for most of his reign, but he did at least attempt to make the fight.

[winky44]

I actually came across an interesting quote on another forum that I had previously not read anywhere else. There was some talk about this on the thread about Jack Johnson:

"I have beaten Johnson, a man Jeffries has
been side stepping for months, ..."

-Marvin Hart

that quote isnt true by marvin hart.

[TheGreatA]

But it begs the question: how confident could he really have been to go seven years without once facing any of them? Even most of the white fighters he faced were not up to much. $30,000 was his stated minimum fee for a title defence, and time and again that sum was met only for him to reject it. He wasn't earning those sums against Battling Johnson and Moran.

Dempsey is rightly downgraded for failing to meet the #1 ranked contender for most of his reign, but he did at least attempt to make the fight.

I'm not trying to justify what Johnson did (as I've said I consider his title reign a poor one compared to his abilities) but I can understand the reasons for it. I still believe that he was confident in his chances of winning but didn't want to risk losing the title. Money was one thing but I think that he simply enjoyed being the champion and the fame he got from it.

I'm pretty sure that Dempsey too once stated that he wanted to reign as long as he could.

Johnson never fought any of them (Langford, McVea, Jeannette) as champion but he did fight them several times early on in his career.

Dempsey agreed to fight Wills but didn't really go to great lengths to make it happen.

[GJC]

I'm not trying to justify what Johnson did (as I've said I consider his title reign a poor one compared to his abilities) but I can understand the reasons for it. I still believe that he was confident in his chances of winning but didn't want to risk losing the title. Money was one thing but I think that he simply enjoyed being the champion and the fame he got from it.

I'm pretty sure that Dempsey too once stated that he wanted to reign as long as he could.

Johnson never fought any of them (Langford, McVea, Jeannette) as champion but he did fight them several times early on in his career.

Dempsey agreed to fight Wills but didn't really go to great lengths to make it happen.

I think that people have to understand the era, a HW title was hard won and once a fighter had it some made it work for them by doing shows/exhibitions etc. Pretty much anything bar defend it with any regularity, Johnson was fairly busy compared with some considering his out of ring problems.

[Southpaw16BF]

It baffles me how you can call Jack Demspey the best fighter of all time. I feel Dempsey was a great fighter, but to call him the best is madness. His resume of wins and accomplishments just dont' match up with the likes of Robinson, Armstrong, Ali to name a few.

I felt his reign was a solid one at best. He made 5 defences of the title and stopped 4 inside the distance. He had a 7 year reign and spent 3 of those years in Hollywood. Which makes his reign even less impressive.

He oppostion fought while champion was so so, stopping the giant very durable Willard was pretty impressive. Do i feel Willard had really no right being champion as he was just in the right place at the right time beating a washed up Johnson.

He wins over Billy Miske and Bill Brennan arent really that impressive, Middlweight Harry Greb had beat the pair without much trouble before Dempsey had fought them. But yet the two would go on to be granted title shots before Greb. Demspey had also beat the pair before he was champion.

He wins over the much smaller LHW Georges Carpentier was viewed by most as a mismatch, but due to Tex Richard promotion of the fight it was huge. Although Carpentier was on a good run.

His win over Luis Angel Firpo is another decent win at best. Firpo was a strong well built fighter who could punch, but was limted and was promoted well. A 44 year old Jack Johnson had had the better of him before the Dempsey fight aswell in sparring.

I also felt Jack Sharkey was handling Demspey pretty well before Dempsey hit him whilst he wasnt looking for the KO. His losses to Tunney dont mean a huge amount as he had been out for a while and did look rusty. Do Tunney besides the knockdown seemed to handle Dempsey with ease.

His record before champion is pretty good. He beat some good contenders and fighters in Gunboat Smith, once white hope Carl Morris, Fireman Jim Flynn, Bill Brennan, Fred Fulton, and Battling Levinsky.

But there is no hiding the fact that in his reign alot of fighters were dnied chances for the title mainly Harry Willis and Harry Greb. Willis was number #1 contender for years but still was deneid his shot, Greb was beating fighters before they even fought Dempsey and had also had the better of Dempsey in numerous sparring sessions.

A old Sam Langford and Jack Johnson also wanted fights with Demspey but were denied chances.

Looking at his accomplishments and resume. Dempsey was a great fighter who took excitment to another level. But his title reign and resume and is no were near the best and your silly if you say otherwise.

Videos and articles on Dempsey second reply onwards............

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283660