How would Bowe do against the great HW?

[Sugarj]

And no much as I love Gene Tunney I wouldn't have him in my all time top ten heavyweight list, he was too small to mix with much bigger heavyweights who could do what he could IMO better such as Ali, Holmes, Lewis or even Wlad. Also, his title reign was brief and his heavyweight credentials were not too colourful.

A great cruiserweight equivalent though and an artistic pioneer of slick hit and move boxing, he'd have been a great trainer.

[Benny Leonard]

Oh and in response to your previous post Benny, I obviously dont think Marciano, Dempsey and Frazier would beat Bowe but I'll give you my take on Tyson.

I could see Tyson doing well early slipping Bowe's jab and throwing fast left hook counters to head and body, it would not suprise me to see a knock down not unlike any of the Razor Ruddock knockdowns, maybe a fast right hand here and there. Bowe would no doubt rise from being knocked down if it did happen and come back punching, but I think his normally slick jab would be offset by Tyson's freakish head movement. I watched the Mitch Greene fight recently and the way Tyson got past Greene's fast punches was pretty impressive and closed the distance.

Once inside both these guys were impressive infighters but I could see Tyson's famous right uppercut to the body then to the head combo working well as Bowe tried to get his own uppercuts off. He used this nicely against Bruno in their first meeting and also in the first Holyfield fight, round four or five I think.

Tyson would no doubt slow a bit after six rounds as was his tendency, I wouldn't doubt he'd be ahead but Bowe would have I'm sure held his own and landed well. I'd actually favour Bowe to steal rounds here with his combinations and frustrate and tire Tyson with his weight in the clinches. But I feel a peak Tyson was too lively to actually be stopped by Bowe. Tyson had some good tenth rounds in his time so I dont think he would finish too shabby (Tillis and Ribalta jump to mind but I haven't seen these fights in a while so I am rusty)!

I think we'd be left with a fairly close points decision for Tyson, a knockdown or two enroute would help his cause after having one of his toughest fights.

Some good points.

I think some people tend to over-look the damage Tyson places on fighters early on as to why they can't quite respond as well by the mid-late rounds in a fight against him. He breaks people down both mentally and physically with his style/ability.

This goes with the stamina bit. Tyson fought hard early so his stamina was going to deplete faster than someone that paces himself more...especially against fighters that are taller, heavier, maybe even stronger, etc.

Tyson would start out fast, bust up your body and **** around your head, and then settle down and box you if he couldn't get you out of there by his KO rounds. But by the point he settled down, usually the opponent was worn down to the point that not only physically couldn't he quite fight back like he wanted to, but mentally he was not as strong.

The Mitch Green fight is a good fight because it is Tyson's first fight after going the distance against Tillis. The Tillis fight was explained by Rooney that Tyson was still unsure of himself with his stamina to go the distance.
Which causes you to take the foot of the gas and even some nerves that wear you down. So, by the time Tyson got to the last round, the end point, he understood he was fine and after the fight matured as a fighter with confidence....which takes us to how he fought against Green and the difference one fight makes to a young maturing fighter.

Now, if that would have happened with a Prime Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, etc. that is something else. We don't really know how Tyson would have done against the 90's HWs...Peak vs. Peak.
He threw it away.
Shame because he was continually improving until after the Spinks fight and then....down.

[fight_professor]

Can people give some explanations as to why they are giving either fighter the win?

Frazier: If he wins, why?

Maricano: If he wins, why?

Dempsey: If he wins, why?

Tyson: If he wins, why?

etc. etc. etc.

Its nonsense to suggest Marciano, Dempsey and Frazier would beat Bowe. Too small, would be tailor made for Bowe with that all out style.

Tyson too, except his extra speed and power give him something to shout about. Bowe may well go 4-0 against that lot, at least 3-1 with Tyson the only loss.

[mickey malone]

Can people give some explanations as to why they are giving either fighter the win?

Frazier: If he wins, why?

Maricano: If he wins, why?

Dempsey: If he wins, why?

Tyson: If he wins, why?

etc. etc. etc.

Ali.... Wins by UD.... Faster hands/feet, more accurate, more heart..

Louis.... Wins by late stoppage.... Power speed & accuracy with both hands, more heart.. Too compact, better conditioning.. Bowe not been in with anyone who hits this hard.. Would stand a good punchers chance though..

Frazier.... Bowe struggles punching down.. Frazier being the wealthy mans Herbie Hyde, would pull off a split DC if able to stay on his feet.. Left hook to the body being a deciding factor.. Would get the better exchanges inside, but would get dominated on the outside.. Frazier too wise for that, I think..

Lewis... Similar in attributes, but Lewis has the faster counter & one of the best faints of all time.. He'd have Bowe outta there by late KO..

Liston... If Bowe takes his power in the early rounds, Liston would get frustrated and be picked off in the 2nd half of the fight.. They're about the same regards heart, but Listons superior conditioning should eek out a draw..

Tyson... No one beats a prime Tyson (my opinion)

Dempsey & Marciano... Both lose UD's due to simply not enough height and reach to get inside.. I think Bowe can smother these guys & contain them...

[mickey malone]

And no much as I love Gene Tunney I wouldn't have him in my all time top ten heavyweight list, he was too small to mix with much bigger heavyweights who could do what he could IMO better such as Ali, Holmes, Lewis or even Wlad. Also, his title reign was brief and his heavyweight credentials were not too colourful.

A great cruiserweight equivalent though and an artistic pioneer of slick hit and move boxing, he'd have been a great trainer.

He sneaks in at no 10 on my list.. He had better feet than Ali, got the better of Dempsey twice, & Dempsey is on more top 10's than not.. In fact, he totally exposed him, which suggests he'd have given Marciano nightmares to..

[Sugarj]

He certainly exposed the post prime Dempsey. Prime for prime, tough call. Tunney may have simply had his number, but the 1919-1923 Dempsey was faster, had a much better workrate and was more relentless than the 1926/27version that lost to Tunney. I cant decide here.

As for Tunney vs Marciano, agreed. Tunney was a stylistic nightmare for the Rock although if Marciano did crash through (as Dempsey did in Tunney 2) I'd wager that Rocky could have the stamina and strength to finish the job, unlike the post prime Dempsey. That said no one else could finish Tunney, I'm pretty sure that even his lone loss to Greb was a points loss.

As for Tunney having better feet than Ali, interesting. I'd fancy that Ali is the slicker mover/dancer and had the faster feet. As we all know Ali at his peak was terrific at keeping at a perfect distance from opponents too. I'm guessing that you might be implying that he was better at sitting down on his punches when he was flat footed than Ali, this I could understand.

Now Jersey Joe Walcott was a master of both, I wish there were more films of him in his prime doing the 'Walcott Waltz' and the 'Walcott Shift'. Now..... theres a mover! In fact with a better chin and more imposing physical dimensions that man could have been a serious top ten heavyweight ATG.

[mickey malone]

He certainly exposed the post prime Dempsey. Prime for prime, tough call. Tunney may have simply had his number, but the 1919-1923 Dempsey was faster, had a much better workrate and was more relentless than the 1926/27version that lost to Tunney. I cant decide here.

As for Tunney vs Marciano, agreed. Tunney was a stylistic nightmare for the Rock although if Marciano did crash through (as Dempsey did in Tunney 2) I'd wager that Rocky could have the stamina and strength to finish the job, unlike the post prime Dempsey. That said no one else could finish Tunney, I'm pretty sure that even his lone loss to Greb was a points loss.

As for Tunney having better feet than Ali, interesting. I'd fancy that Ali is the slicker mover/dancer and had the faster feet. As we all know Ali at his peak was terrific at keeping at a perfect distance from opponents too. I'm guessing that you might be implying that he was better at sitting down on his punches when he was flat footed than Ali, this I could understand.

Now Jersey Joe Walcott was a master of both, I wish there were more films of him in his prime doing the 'Walcott Waltz' and the 'Walcott Shift'. Now..... theres a mover! In fact with a better chin and more imposing physical dimensions that man could have been a serious top ten heavyweight ATG.

Good post... No one looked smoother than Ali on his feet, but it was whether he was playing to the crowd or not, where as Tunney was strictly business & used his attribute far better defensively, while keeping a much higher guard.. Ali was tagged most often while on his bike with a low guard, Frazier1 being the best example.. Granted, the fights with Dempsey were past prime, but Tunney wasn't a spring chicken either, & was only able to expose Dempsey because of his immaculate footwork.. The 1st fight exemplifies this superbly.. Dempsey simply couldn't catch him..
Your right about the soul defeat to Greb.. It was a DC and I think it was at Middleweight.. Tunney KO'd him at LH though...

[Sugarj]

Your right Mickey, Ali did play to the crowd with his dancing and footwork, shuffles, knee wiggles and all. Sometimes he didn't even need to, Tunney certainly wouldn't, he was far too serious for that. But Ali's footwork certainly raised a smile out of me and to be fair to him, I dont think he ever did the shuffle in a fight he lost. Ha ha

[Coonhound13]

Prime Bowe is a threat to any of the great heavyweights.

[mickey malone]

Prime Bowe is a threat to any of the great heavyweights.

For a short amount of time... Yes.. He was...