How would Bowe do against the great HW?

[mickey malone]

RE: SugarJ.. Good post.. Valid point on the size of Holyfield to.. He'd also be bigger than Joe Louis.. Apart from chin, I don't think Holy was as good as Louis, & besides him, I wouldn't pick any of the black & white era to beat a prime Bowe, but they'd all whoop him as he is today.
I can't really take the come back seriously.. He's in dreadful shape, sporting a deflated paddling pool in place of his mid riff, & the guys he's fighting aren't even D class.. I think it's fair to say, he wouldn't beat Holy or Golota if they were to fight again tomorrow..
With opinion, I find there's always 1 or 2 guys in every division who the majority of people rate highly, but I don't, & visa versa.. For example, I rate Gene Tunney, but most people don't, & I don't particularly rate Liston, but most people do.. I suppose it all depends on how you analize styles.. In fairness, Bowe had some great attributes, but got distracted & wasted them.. Other than that I think he'd be in everyones top 10..

[Sugarj]

I am in total agreement with everything you've said there Mickey, particularly Gene Tunney who was for me like a smaller Larry Holmes stylistically and one of my all time faves. My only disagreement is predictably on the Sonny Liston front, to me he looked bloody good between the mid 50s and 1962.

[sonnyboyx2]

So how would Bowe fare against the following, prime v prime of course:

Ali

Louis

Holmes

Tyson

Lewis

Marciano

Dempsey

Frazier

Liston

Foreman

Start with this lot.

Ali v Bowe --- Ali KO11
Louis v Bowe --- Louis KO11
Marciano v Bowe --- Marciano KO11
Tyson v Bowe ---- Bowe KO14
Holmes v Bowe ----Bowe KO13
Lewis v Bowe ---- Bowe KO7
Frazier v Bowe ----Frazier KO11
Dempsey v Bowe --- Dempsey KO7
Liston v Bowe ---- Bowe PTS
Foreman v Bowe --- Bowe PTS

[mickey malone]

I am in total agreement with everything you've said there Mickey, particularly Gene Tunney who was for me like a smaller Larry Holmes stylistically and one of my all time faves. My only disagreement is predictably on the Sonny Liston front, to me he looked bloody good between the mid 50s and 1962.

Good way of describing Tunney.. I also think Liston was pretty good, but not quite top 10.. I know I'm in the minority, but in a way he was similar to Bowe & didn't make the most of his resume.. I also think Ali made him look worse than Richard Dunn (although I know Liston would KO Dunn in 1 round lol)

[Kid McCoy]

I tend to view Bowe in the same way as Buster Douglas. Both great talents who unfortunately shared the same training and eating habits. Like Buster, Bowe also only had one great performance against elite opposition.

Other than beating Holyfield, what else is there to go on? Beating Holyfield, great fighter though he was, is not enough to convince me that he's beating other elite heavies, many of whom were either better than Holyfield or bring completely different attributes to the table. He looked impressive enough blasting out the likes of Jesse Ferguson and Jorge Gonzalez, but against that level of opposition he ought to.

It's possible to read too much into the Holyfield fights. Holyfield had respectable power, but wasn't exactly George Foreman in that respect and still had Bowe down and reeling around the ring in their third fight. Evander also fought a ****** fight first time round, giving away his superior boxing ability by brawling inside with Bowe.

Based on his size, strength and ability, Bowe is capable of beating anyone on that list, if the first Holyfield version turns up. Having Eddie Futch in the corner won't do him any harm either. Given that he's such an unproven quantity, however, who would really back him to beat an Ali, a Foreman or a Louis?

[Benny Leonard]

I am in total agreement with everything you've said there Mickey, particularly Gene Tunney who was for me like a smaller Larry Holmes stylistically and one of my all time faves. My only disagreement is predictably on the Sonny Liston front, to me he looked bloody good between the mid 50s and 1962.

As a LH or a HW?


Either way, one of the ATG fighters to grace the Big Stage.

[Benny Leonard]

Can people give some explanations as to why they are giving either fighter the win?

Frazier: If he wins, why?

Maricano: If he wins, why?

Dempsey: If he wins, why?

Tyson: If he wins, why?

etc. etc. etc.

[Sugarj]

Hi Benny, when I talk of Tunney I mean largely as a heavyweight. I make it a point not to comment or offer much opinion on fights or fighters that I haven't actually seen films of and honestly I've not seen much of Tunney as a light heavyweight. I have seen the Carpentier fight and forget in the passage of time if this was at heavyweight or light heavy.

But when I compare him to Holmes i mean in movement, fast feet, light on his toes, tricky to catch clean, calculating. Great left jab, fast combinations and a not too shabby right uppercut too.

The second fight with Dempsey (which actually bares some interesting comparisons to the Tyson Douglas fight too, stylistcally and because of the notorious long count) reminds me of when Holmes met Shavers for the title. Shavers clearly knocks Holmes down with an almighty shot, but Larry listens to the count, rises, dances and fiddles his way to survival before coming back to beat Shavers.

[Benny Leonard]

Hi Benny, when I talk of Tunney I mean largely as a heavyweight. I make it a point not to comment or offer much opinion on fights or fighters that I haven't actually seen films of and honestly I've not seen much of Tunney as a light heavyweight. I have seen the Carpentier fight and forget in the passage of time if this was at heavyweight or light heavy.

But when I compare him to Holmes i mean in movement, fast feet, light on his toes, tricky to catch clean, calculating. Great left jab, fast combinations and a not too shabby right uppercut too.

The second fight with Dempsey (which actually bares some interesting comparisons to the Tyson Douglas fight too, stylistcally and because of the notorious long count) reminds me of when Holmes met Shavers for the title. Shavers clearly knocks Holmes down with an almighty shot, but Larry listens to the count, rises, dances and fiddles his way to survival before coming back to beat Shavers.

Ah....

I think it may be tough putting him in the top 10 for HW if that is what you are saying. His biggest wins were against Dempsey and by that point; Dempsey may not have been at his best considering he had come off a 3 year layoff so it is hard to say that was the same Dempsey both mentally and physically that took the title. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered because of the skill-set of Tunney, but there is enough to question it. And then what's left?
We could probably just compare him to fighters under 200 pounds and do that kind of listing.

However, when you do look at the footage that is available, you do lean towards thinking he may be able to take this guy or that guy. He was a mover, a thinker, and a tough fighter so that may trouble the 200+ pounders that tended to be plodders.


I'm really not sure.

As a LH, I've seen most (if not all) lists have him in the top 10 ATG as a LH...and of course, P4P ATG list.

Considering his weight never went up above 200, we can still compare him with LH-CW or any fighter that weighed around his height.

It's a bit harder to start putting him up against the bigger guys when we don't really have the data to back him up on this.

Dempsey at least had some big guys although their skill-set/ability is questionable...but the threat of size, height, strength, power, etc. is still there to look at as a threat.

I'll have to think about it myself.

[Sugarj]

Oh and in response to your previous post Benny, I obviously dont think Marciano, Dempsey and Frazier would beat Bowe but I'll give you my take on Tyson.

I could see Tyson doing well early slipping Bowe's jab and throwing fast left hook counters to head and body, it would not suprise me to see a knock down not unlike any of the Razor Ruddock knockdowns, maybe a fast right hand here and there. Bowe would no doubt rise from being knocked down if it did happen and come back punching, but I think his normally slick jab would be offset by Tyson's freakish head movement. I watched the Mitch Greene fight recently and the way Tyson got past Greene's fast punches was pretty impressive and closed the distance.

Once inside both these guys were impressive infighters but I could see Tyson's famous right uppercut to the body then to the head combo working well as Bowe tried to get his own uppercuts off. He used this nicely against Bruno in their first meeting and also in the first Holyfield fight, round four or five I think.

Tyson would no doubt slow a bit after six rounds as was his tendency, I wouldn't doubt he'd be ahead but Bowe would have I'm sure held his own and landed well. I'd actually favour Bowe to steal rounds here with his combinations and frustrate and tire Tyson with his weight in the clinches. But I feel a peak Tyson was too lively to actually be stopped by Bowe. Tyson had some good tenth rounds in his time so I dont think he would finish too shabby (Tillis and Ribalta jump to mind but I haven't seen these fights in a while so I am rusty)!

I think we'd be left with a fairly close points decision for Tyson, a knockdown or two enroute would help his cause after having one of his toughest fights.