Do you belive Jack Johnson is overrated?

[Gettin Jiggy]

Johnson did have some good wins as a contender coming up: McVea, Jeannette, Haines, Martin, Ferguson, etc, and generally fought the best around. He did also beat Langford, although Sam was barely a light-middle at the time.

His title run tends to get overrated, however. His best wins as champion were the six-year inactive Jim Jeffries who had to lose 100lbs in training for it, and middleweight Stanley Ketchel - how many heavyweight champions would not have beaten the reigning middleweight champion of their day?

Both of those fights were forgivable given the big money involved, but other that that he mainly defended against a motley crew of journeymen, whilst drawing the colour line as egregiously as any white fighter. Langford in particular chased him all over the world and couldn't get Johnson in the ring for love nor money.

Lower top ten is arguable, but the current IBRO rating of #3 is overrating him, imo.

Poster Poet682006 also has him number #3 in his Heavyweight ATG List.

[jerzeytib]

i agree also

[Obama]

Johnson did have some good wins as a contender coming up: McVea, Jeannette, Haines, Martin, Ferguson, etc, and generally fought the best around. He did also beat Langford, although Sam was barely a light-middle at the time.

His title run tends to get overrated, however. His best wins as champion were the six-year inactive Jim Jeffries who had to lose 100lbs in training for it, and middleweight Stanley Ketchel - how many heavyweight champions would not have beaten the reigning middleweight champion of their day?

Both of those fights were forgivable given the big money involved, but other that that he mainly defended against a motley crew of journeymen, whilst drawing the colour line as egregiously as any white fighter. Langford in particular chased him all over the world and couldn't get Johnson in the ring for love nor money.

Lower top ten is arguable, but the current IBRO rating of #3 is overrating him, imo.

His best title defense wins you mean? Cuz Burns (who he won the title from) was clearly the best win. Having ****ty title defenses as champion was pretty common at the time. Before Joe Louis, no one really impressed in the World Title defense department aside from Jeffries, who quite clearly could have done more by facing Johnson. Had Johnson won the title back then from a prime Jeffries (which he would have imo), assuming they convicted him of violating the Mann Act at the same time, Johnson would have had more title defenses. And who knows who would have been included in that list.

Poster Poet682006 also has him number #3 in his Heavyweight ATG List.

I also rate him #3. His pre-championship resume is the greatest any Heavyweight has ever had. And when you watch him on film, it never seems like the man is even trying. He played with credible opposition like they were bums.

[mickey malone]

He had a controversial career, & ratings in general display this..
I've seen him in peoples top 5 as often as I've seen him outside of the top 10.. I'd have to be an under rater to.. In my opinion, he's around 12 or 13.. Skill wise, he was exceptional, & introduced a few things that hadn't been done before.. His defense in particular, was one of, if not the, best of all time & I often think about moving him up.. What puts me off has already been mentioned.. It's that his title resume wasn't particularly great.. He was a great HW, but not a great champ, so falls into an odd category really..

[Benny Leonard]

The win over Jim Jeffries really shouldn't mean much, neither should the win over Fitzsimmons. Jeffries was a man in his mid-30's who hadn't fought in years and had bloated to up to 300 lbs when he made his desperate attempt at regaining the title. Fitzsimmons was well over 40 years old and offered very little resistance although few bring this up as a great win for Johnson so it's not really "overrated".

Jeannette, McVea and Langford were somewhat young and not as experienced as they would go onto become although they were not as inexperienced as their records would indicate (in the case of McVea and Jeannette). Jeannette had already made Langford quit by the time he fought Johnson and McVea, even at 20 years of age, was like the Tyson of his day.

Johnson does have some underrated wins over the lesser known names of his day such as Klon***e Haines, George Gardner, Denver Ed Martin, Black Bill, Sandy Ferguson, Frank Childs, Sailor Burke and others. He fought everyone as a contender but avoided fighting the best as the champion.

I do rate his abilities quite highly. He may have fought from the clinch a lot more than any of today's fighters or even the mid-1900's boxers, but people might miss some of his "magic" due to the poor quality film. He had a really good uppercut from the clinch.


2:40

Maybe you know a more on the topic, but didn't Johnson challenge Jeffries when Jeffries was Champion, only for Jeffries to decline the fight?

For TS's question: Depends on who is rating him.

I think what he had to go up against (and I'm not just talking about inside the ring), should be considered. Everybody is tested at different levels in life, and Johnson went through a harder test than many other Champion boxers.
Being who he was in his era and being as succesful as he was, is something incredible. We can't say any Champion could have gone through it and came out like he did.

[Rockin']

Johnsons not overrated. The atg ratings are by how/what they did in their time, not what they might do today. Johnson took 'em all on, except for some of the black contenders when he held the belt but that was the fashionable thing to do back then. In my opinion Johnson was/is not overrated..........Rockin'

[Miburo]

Not for his time at all, but in fantasy match-ups with many modern fighters, yes. That said, boxing was almost a different sport at the time. You didn't go 40 rounds by fighting like Paul Williams.

[Kid McCoy]

His best title defense wins you mean? Cuz Burns (who he won the title from) was clearly the best win. Having ****ty title defenses as champion was pretty common at the time. Before Joe Louis, no one really impressed in the World Title defense department aside from Jeffries, who quite clearly could have done more by facing Johnson. Had Johnson won the title back then from a prime Jeffries (which he would have imo), assuming they convicted him of violating the Mann Act at the same time, Johnson would have had more title defenses. And who knows who would have been included in that list.

I also rate him #3. His pre-championship resume is the greatest any Heavyweight has ever had. And when you watch him on film, it never seems like the man is even trying. He played with credible opposition like they were bums.

Sure you can count Burns, all 5'7" and 170lbs of him. It was a pretty good win though. I disagree on Jeffries, I think Johnson dodged a bullet when he lost to Hart and Jeffries subsequently retired without facing him. At that point, I think Jeff would have beaten him.

Given Johnson's words and actions when he was champion, I very much doubt any of those extra title defences would have been against Langford, McVea, Jeannette or Wills. As he put it himself, "I'm the first black champion, and I'm gonna be the last."

[Spartacus Sully]

Over Rated? no so much. i wouldn't rate him at 3 but he would be in my top 10

******? Definately. i mean who needs gold teeth in 1910?

though for the record Jeffries would have tore him a new one if they fought when he was in his prime.

[Sugarj]

Ha ha, the Hart fight! I seem to remember one ringside journalist saying something like 'in the excitement of the occasion the referee pointed at the wrong man'. Hard to believe Johnson would have been outpointed by Hart, that said I haven't seen the fight so I reserve judgement and I guess he did last the 20 round (if memory serves) distance which is a feat in itself.

As for a peak Jim Jeffries beating Jack Johnson, I doubt it. Jeffries in retirement did say that he didn't think he could either, true gent, very honest. That said its arguable as to whether Johnson was peak around the time of the Hart fight so hell, who knows?