Sonny Liston vs. Joe Frazier

[mickey malone]

Just to interject here re: phantom punch. It was a hell of a right hand that landed flush. Was nothing iffy that night!

As I wrote... "Took away his lifes blood"

Apologize for letting my sarcasm creep into it...

[princemanspoper]

Fights b4 Ali... All wins

Zora Folley
Eddie Macken
Cleveland Williams
Roy Harris
Nino Valdez

Think it's fair to say, Frazier would'a beaten all of these (Can't remember but I think he did 1or2 of em)

Fights between losing to Ali & losing to Martin (who Frazier would of also beaten)

Dave Bailey 15-16-2
Bill McMurray 23-18-2
Willis Earls 4-7-1
Roger Rischer 29-11-2
Amos Lincoln 40-10-2
Billy Joiner 9-4-3
George Johnson 16-17-4
Sonny Moore 20-30-2

And they're impressive credentials are they..?... It appears the 'phantom' punch from Ali took away his lifes blood.. Frazier never let that happen to him, did he?
Further more, I don't recall Frazier taking on a diet of journeymen...
Now... Mr Know **** all.. Go cry to ye mumma...

YOU are the bully boy poster, & I've ****ed bullies more times than you've hung outside public toilets...

Ah the old "He woulda beaten them anyway" passing of a supposed fact without any actual facts at all.Who's to say how joe frazier would have done against the likes of cleveland williams because he never would have had the balls to have fought williams in the first place

williams was a big strong puncher and frazier ducked them like you duck cold hard facts

[street bully]

Liston by mid round KO.

[boxingbuff]

Frazier damaged his eye in a training accident in the mid-60s, after which he only had limited vision in it. When Ali closed the other eye in Manila he was effectively blind in the ring.

Reasoning it was better to be blind and rich than blind and broke, he kept the condition secret. He passed his medicals with the simple expedient of switching his hands as took his eye test, but both times covering the same eye.

Frazier had a catarac in one eye.

My source:Joe Frazier's book

[princemanspoper]

as for norton vs frazier and them not fighting because eddie futch trained them both and they sparred that's bull****

eddie futch left norton after his second fight with ali in 73.And frazier and norton hadn't sparred in ages,and they didn't actually spar all that often,norton trained and was based on the west coast,frazier trained and was based on the east coast


and comparing bonavena,chuvalo and ellis's punching power to lyle's,shavers or even a mac fosters is ****ing ******ed they were natural punchers with devestating power

fraziers lack of real punchers on his record is no coincidence,His trainers were not fools and recognized his lack of chin

like I said before fraziers whole legacy is ased off of ali,so most think that ecause ali couldn't knock him out despite landing at will that frazier somehow had a good chin WRONG

ali's power does not equal to many of those who fought in that era,he had the occasional hard right hand but that was as I said it was Occasional


bonavena wasn't a rugged powerhouse but he wasn't a big puncher,he had power but he was never a puncher and chuvalo was dangerous enough especially in close quarters but he didn't have it either norton was the superior puncher to both

[Sugarj]

I do agree alot with what you've said there Prince. In the second round of Ali frazier 2, Ali seemed to noticeably stagger Frazier with a one-two and a phantom incorrect round end call from the ref Tony Perez stopped Ali's assault, even Ali's fairly light punches compared to Liston troubled him.

Frazier had bags of heart and an ability to absorb lighter punches all night. He did of course manage to drag himself off the canvas several times against Foreman, but I fear that were he to face the hardest punchers in history he'd possibly suffer KO/TKO defeats.

I wouldn't be betting on Frazier in matches with Liston, Shavers, Lyle, Tyson, Bowe or Vitali. He may well beat several of them but I wouldn't be confident of him winning.

[mickey malone]

Ah the old "He woulda beaten them anyway" passing of a supposed fact without any actual facts at all.Who's to say how joe frazier would have done against the likes of cleveland williams because he never would have had the balls to have fought williams in the first place

williams was a big strong puncher and frazier ducked them like you duck cold hard facts

Well exactly.... WHO....??? .... Me, you & a few others.... So go get pissed up again & tell the tossers down the pub all about it, cos you got no facts.. Just cold hard bollocks & an intense hatred for anything that don't quite rub your meat.. You're old news already son, & and you've only just been accepted as a boy scout.. How ****ing sad is that you rude ****....

[TheGreatA]

as for norton vs frazier and them not fighting because eddie futch trained them both and they sparred that's bull****

eddie futch left norton after his second fight with ali in 73.And frazier and norton hadn't sparred in ages,and they didn't actually spar all that often,norton trained and was based on the west coast,frazier trained and was based on the east coast

From the book "Going the distance" by Ken Norton:

"Good sparring partners are heavily in demand in boxing, and Eddie convinced Yank to give me a chance to be a sparring partner for Frazier, who was then undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. Frazier would get a good sparring partner for his up and coming fight with Jimmy Ellis, and I would be able to learn and improve on my technique by one of the hardest hitters of all time, "Smokin" Joe Frazier. It was a win-win situation and the money wasn't bad, either. Frazier paid me a handsome 500$ a week to spar with him, but let me tell you, I earned every cent for some of the shots I took.

Going to Frazier's camp was my introduction to the big time. Joe was then, as he is now, a very fun-loving guy, but he trained in the gym very hard. Once the gloves were on, he didn't mess around. You made no mistakes with Joe or you lost your head. At the very least, he could break your ribs.

Frazier beat me the first time I climbed into the ring with him. I made the unfortunate mistake of going out drinking the night before, and I almost got killed. He caught me with that lethal left hook and I just went numb. The second time we sparred, there was a crowd on hand, and we didn't hold anything back. After three rounds with Frazier, boxing Godzilla for 10 rounds was nothing!

It was rumoured that I and Frazier made a pact never to fight each other because we were such good friends. That was simply not true. The reality was that if we had been offered the right amount of money, we would have fought each other. However, after two years of sparring with each other, we knew each other's style so well and had formed a mutual respect for each other's abilities."

and comparing bonavena,chuvalo and ellis's punching power to lyle's,shavers or even a mac fosters is ****ing ******ed they were natural punchers with devestating power

Where's the proof that Mac Foster and Ron Lyle punched any harder than Oscar Bonavena?

None of the three knocked down Quarry but Chuvalo did.

I didn't say that any of them punched as hard as Shavers but Shavers was never in position to fight Frazier when Frazier was still around. He was beaten down by Quarry in one round.

fraziers lack of real punchers on his record is no coincidence,His trainers were not fools and recognized his lack of chin

Which punchers should he have fought then? I already proved that Shavers and Lyle were never in the position to fight Frazier.

like I said before fraziers whole legacy is ased off of ali,so most think that ecause ali couldn't knock him out despite landing at will that frazier somehow had a good chin WRONG

Frazier based his legacy on winning the Olympic gold medal, beating all the top contenders of the late 1960's (look at the Ring rankings my friend), unifying the WBA, WBC & NYSAC titles and capturing the linear title against an unbeaten Muhammad Ali in perhaps the biggest fight of all time.

ali's power does not equal to many of those who fought in that era,he had the occasional hard right hand but that was as I said it was Occasional

He landed that "occasional" right hand on Frazier a ton in their three fights and it didn't do the damage on him that it did to Foreman, Liston, Lyle...

bonavena wasn't a rugged powerhouse but he wasn't a big puncher,he had power but he was never a puncher and chuvalo was dangerous enough especially in close quarters but he didn't have it either norton was the superior puncher to both

Norton was hardly a puncher. He wore down opposition with pressure but never showed a devastating KO punch except against the heavily over-hyped Duane Bobick whose chin was found out.

[princemanspoper]

From the book "Going the distance" by Ken Norton:

"Good sparring partners are heavily in demand in boxing, and Eddie convinced Yank to give me a chance to be a sparring partner for Frazier, who was then undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. Frazier would get a good sparring partner for his up and coming fight with Jimmy Ellis, and I would be able to learn and improve on my technique by one of the hardest hitters of all time, "Smokin" Joe Frazier. It was a win-win situation and the money wasn't bad, either. Frazier paid me a handsome 500$ a week to spar with him, but let me tell you, I earned every cent for some of the shots I took.

Going to Frazier's camp was my introduction to the big time. Joe was then, as he is now, a very fun-loving guy, but he trained in the gym very hard. Once the gloves were on, he didn't mess around. You made no mistakes with Joe or you lost your head. At the very least, he could break your ribs.

Frazier beat me the first time I climbed into the ring with him. I made the unfortunate mistake of going out drinking the night before, and I almost got killed. He caught me with that lethal left hook and I just went numb. The second time we sparred, there was a crowd on hand, and we didn't hold anything back. After three rounds with Frazier, boxing Godzilla for 10 rounds was nothing!

It was rumoured that I and Frazier made a pact never to fight each other because we were such good friends. That was simply not true. The reality was that if we had been offered the right amount of money, we would have fought each other. However, after two years of sparring with each other, we knew each other's style so well and had formed a mutual respect for each other's abilities.".

And your point is? by the time ken norton had established himself as a top heavweight,he and frazier sparred no more,futch let him to go with frazier.Many boxers end up fighting their past regular sparring partners.

Where's the proof that Mac Foster and Ron Lyle punched any harder than Oscar Bonavena?

None of the three knocked down Quarry but Chuvalo did.

stupid argument,ali knocked down and remained the only man to have ever stopped foreman as did jimmy young knock down foreman,would you try to argue that young and ali hit harder than lyle?

I didn't say that any of them punched as hard as Shavers but Shavers was never in position to fight Frazier when Frazier was still around. He was beaten down by Quarry in one round.

I never said shavers was in a position for a title shot,that doesn't mean frazier didn't avoid a fight with the man,Jimmy ellis was no longer relevant at HW,he was a ghost of his former glories yet frazier still found the time to fight him in a useless fight

Which punchers should he have fought then? I already proved that Shavers and Lyle were never in the position to fight Frazier.

lyle and foster should have gotten their shots,there's no if's or buts about it,losing to quarry is irrelevant because those title shots should have already have taken place

Frazier based his legacy on winning the Olympic gold medal, beating all the top contenders of the late 1960's (look at the Ring rankings my friend), unifying the WBA, WBC & NYSAC titles and capturing the linear title against an unbeaten Muhammad Ali in perhaps the biggest fight of all time.

Didn't fight liston,lewis and martin tho did he? I give norton more credit for beating ali,when norton fought ali,ali had ripped through the rankings and pushed him way to the front of the cue for a title shot but frazier wouldn't give him one as a rematch would have presented itself with a much freasher ali who he feared would have beaten him seeing how much he had struggled with a rusty ali

Norton was hardly a puncher. He wore down opposition with pressure but never showed a devastating KO punch except against the heavily over-hyped Duane Bobick whose chin was found out.

norton was a greater puncher than frazier ever was,he had a huge over hand right and arguably a superior left hook than frazier ever had

[TheGreatA]

And your point is? by the time ken norton had established himself as a top heavweight,he and frazier sparred no more,futch let him to go with frazier.Many boxers end up fighting their past regular sparring partners.

You said that they rarely sparred with each other. They did spar a lot and even Norton admits that he was once knocked out in sparring by Frazier.

stupid argument,ali knocked down and remained the only man to have ever stopped foreman as did jimmy young knock down foreman,would you try to argue that young and ali hit harder than lyle?

Lyle too nearly knocked out Foreman. Foreman had also clearly ran out of stamina when Young and Ali knocked him down.

Quarry was caught with one big punch by Chuvalo which sent him down heavily. Frazier beat him down brutally and knocked him down.

He walked through Lyle's, Shavers' and Foster's best punches.

I never said shavers was in a position for a title shot,that doesn't mean frazier didn't avoid a fight with the man,Jimmy ellis was no longer relevant at HW,he was a ghost of his former glories yet frazier still found the time to fight him in a useless fight

It was nothing but preparation for the Thrilla in Manila. It's not like Ali didn't fight his share of "tune-ups", so did just about every fighter in history.

The bottom line is that Frazier could've never avoided Shavers because Shavers was never top contender when Frazier was around. Fighting Shavers in 1972 would've been no different from fighting Ron Stander, who had actually beaten him. Shavers scored a big upset over Jimmy Ellis in 1973 but was knocked out and off the rankings by Quarry soon after.

lyle and foster should have gotten their shots,there's no if's or buts about it,losing to quarry is irrelevant because those title shots should have already have taken place

Who had Foster beaten to get a shot at Frazier? The ancient Cleveland Williams?

Frazier was too busy unifying the world titles against Ellis to fight an unproven prospect in Mac Foster who was exposed by Quarry, the first top 10 ranked contender he ever fought.

Lyle had beaten former Frazier victims Manuel Ramos and Buster Mathis and in 1973 became a ranked fighter. He took on Quarry while Frazier took on Foreman. Both lost.

Didn't fight liston,lewis and martin tho did he?

Liston was a high risk/low reward opponent until 1968 when he got back in the rankings by beating Henry Clark. The majority thought he had thrown the Ali fight and his image was tainted. There was no gain in fighting him because he wasn't even ranked at the time.

When he did beat Clark and got back in the rankings, he was quickly knocked off by Leotis Martin, who himself had to retire due to a detached retina. Martin had recent losses to Ellis and Bonavena and the win over Liston was by far the biggest in his whole career. Unfortunately his career had to end right after the fight.

Blue Lewis was a nobody who never won a big fight in his life. He was a fringe contender ranked below Manuel Ramos.

I give norton more credit for beating ali,when norton fought ali,ali had ripped through the rankings and pushed him way to the front of the cue for a title shot but frazier wouldn't give him one as a rematch would have presented itself with a much freasher ali who he feared would have beaten him seeing how much he had struggled with a rusty ali[

Of course beating a 2 years older and 6 lb heavier Ali who hadn't exactly looked amazing in his past couple of fights must have been way better than Frazier's win.

norton was a greater puncher than frazier ever was,he had a huge over hand right and arguably a superior left hook than frazier ever had

And in which of his fights does he demonstrate this punching power that you're talking about? Even Norton's own trainers admitted that he was not a huge puncher while Norton himself described Frazier as one of the biggest punchers of all time.