Ray Robinson against boxers.

[Obama]

For the record, Robinson was 20 years into his career and over the hill when he met Pender. That said, I felt he won both fights despite the verdict.

[mickey malone]

Granted.... But the question is WHO??..... And Pender was one of em....
I'm well aware it was just before burning out at middle...
Even Terry Downes kicked his arse around this time, & he prefered smoking cigars out of a pipe while decking a pint of wine.....

[Obama]

Granted.... But the question is WHO??.....

Did you not see the videos I posted of Fritzie Zivic? If that's not a boxer I don't know what is.

[D-MiZe]

Put it this way. I don't think SRR wouldn't be as 'great' if he was fighting when Hagler, Hearns, SRL and Duran were.

But that's just my opinion.

[mickey malone]

Did you not see the videos I posted of Fritzie Zivic? If that's not a boxer I don't know what is.

Of course... I'm a big fan of the 'dirty bastard'
But we're talking SRR... Not Henry Armstrong....
That was (in my opinion, his best boxing performance)
Against SRR, he got totally owned by having his rough house tactics cleverly negated, thus proving he was NOT a slickster... Zivic was a rough house fighter who mixed it and lost (on a few occasions) to Jake LaMotta (as RAW as you can get)
These were NOT boxing matches for the purist..
Surely, I don't have to read out the scores between LaMotta & Robinson..
It would only prove my point.....

[Obama]

Of course... I'm a big fan of the 'dirty bastard'
But we're talking SRR... Not Henry Armstrong....
That was (in my opinion, his best boxing performance)
Against SRR, he got totally owned by having his rough house tactics cleverly negated, thus proving he was NOT a slickster... Zivic was a rough house fighter who mixed it and lost (on a few occasions) to Jake LaMotta (as RAW as you can get)
These were NOT boxing matches for the purist..
Surely, I don't have to read out the scores between LaMotta & Robinson..
It would only prove my point.....

1) You don't have to be slick to be a good boxer. Few (if any) of the great Mexican boxers were slick. Sanchez, Chavez, De La Hoya, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, none of these guys were slick. Sanchez comes the closest.

2) SRR from his own mouth said Zivic gave him his hardest fights.

3) LaMotta was a Middleweight, and he didn't get to Zivic until mid 1943, after he was already past his prime. The first 3 fights with LaMotta also ended in split decision. Not to mention, LaMotta also beat other BOXERS besides Robinson and Zivic.

[Southpaw16BF]

1) You don't have to be slick to be a good boxer. Few (if any) of the great Mexican boxers were slick. Sanchez, Chavez, De La Hoya, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, none of these guys were slick. Sanchez comes the closest.

2) SRR from his own mouth said Zivic gave him his hardest fights.

3) LaMotta was a Middleweight, and he didn't get to Zivic until mid 1943, after he was already past his prime. The first 3 fights with LaMotta also ended in split decision. Not to mention, LaMotta also beat other BOXERS besides Robinson and Zivic.

Lamotta also defeated Holman Williams, one of the best defensive boxers of that era, Williams was a very slick and clever customer, who held a wins over Archie Moore, Charley Burley and Lloyd Marshall. Lamotta defeated him on points a UD verdict in 1946.

Eddie Futch once said that he would rather watch Williams shadow box than watch other's fight.

Most posters just seem to think Lamotta was a outright slugger, but he had a good boxing brain, and pretty sound head movemnt when he wanted to. And he beat some of the best boxers of his era.

[Obama]

Lamotta also defeated Holman Williams, one of the best defensive boxers of that era, Williams was a very slick and clever customer, who held a wins over Archie Moore, Charley Burley and Lloyd Marshall. Lamotta defeated him on points a UD verdict in 1946.

Eddie Futch once said that he would rather watch Williams shadow box than watch other's fight.

Most posters just seem to think Lamotta was a outright slugger, but he had a good boxing brain, and pretty sound head movemnt when he wanted to. And he beat some of the best boxers of his era.

In all fairness Holman Williams was over the hill when LaMotta beat him. He stopped being really good in the early 40s. Primed in the 30s.

[Southpaw16BF]

Holman Williams is very underrated round here...........

Williams was very skilled and great defensively, the late great Eddie Futch once said ''He would rather watch Williams shadow box that watch most other fighters in the ring''

I always find Lamotta's win over Williams is a underrated win, it also a underrated win for Marcel Cerdan.

When it came to style Holman Williams was a talent so far ahead of his contemporaries that stable-mate Eddie Futch once said that he would rather watch Williams shadow box that watch most other fighters in the ring. Essentially a product of the Detroit boxing gyms, where he trained with Joe Louis and Futch, Holman Williams was one of the great crop of black fighters that battled in the 1930's and 1940's. One look at his record will show that this slick boxing defensive wizard fought the best welterweights, middleweights and even light-heavyweights around at the time. Conspicuous by their absence however, as on most other records of the standout black ring men of the day, are meetings with big name white fighters.

Holman Williams opposed Cerdan and LaMotta only after he had been a professional fighter for close to fourteen years, losing to both of them on points. The only fighter to beat him consistently while in his prime was the largely ignored Louis 'Cocoa' Kid who beat Williams eight times while losing only three decisions.

Other great black fighters that opposed Holman Williams were Charley Burley, Jack Chase, Lloyd Marshall, Kid Tunero, Eddie Booker, Joe Carter, Bert Lytell, Aaron Wade and Archie Moore. Practically every one of these men was avoided by the higher ranked white fighters of the day, (and were mostly avoided by a certain Ray Robinson). All of these guys had to fight amongst themselves opposing each other on a regular basis just to get a payday. Williams fought the great Charley Burley seven times with three wins apiece and one no decision, (though it has been said that they fought each other more than twenty times all over the United States in cash fights), Burley was one of only three fighter to stop Williams.

Besides his great talent one barrier to Williams' quest for a title may have been that Joe Louis managed him for a time, though largely ineffectively. A great asset in the gym due to his marvelous boxing skills and great sense of humor. Holman was liked by everyone he met and was a credit to the sport. After his retirement he helped in the development of young fighters in Akron, Ohio, assisting Lee Thornton. When Thornton opened the Club Wonder, Williams helped out as a weekend maintenance man. One weekend, while asleep in the club he was killed in a fire that engulfed the club.

Pictures Of Williams...........

[Southpaw16BF]

In all fairness Holman Williams was over the hill when LaMotta beat him. He stopped being really good in the early 40s. Primed in the 30s.

Williams had seen better days no dout, but the fight before Lamotta he had took a prime Marcel Cerdan 10 hard fought rounds, in a fight were Cerdan didnt have it all his own way. And also in the year 46 Williams had beat a young Bob Satterfield.

So yes Williams had seen much better days, but he still was a pretty capable fighter, and was still dangerous as I have just proved. And Lamotta got a UD victory over him.