Greatest 130 pounder of all time

[Miburo]

I would say

Greatest=Arguello
Best in head to head matchups=Mayweather Jr.
The one to give more trouble to Mayweather Jr. (pretending he was a little bit bigger)= Saddler

and to poet... this might be a jr. division but (like 140) it's been around forever, and its being home to many great champs. We are not talking about 108,168 or cruiserweight...

A very sound assessment, although I'm hesistant to name Saddler against Mayweather simply based on size (which you did point out). He was a huge featherweight for his era, but compared to even contemporary featherweights (much less super featherweights) he is not particularly large. In terms of skill set though you may be right, one of the dirtiest and roughest fighters of all time, with tremendous power.

[wmute]

I never actually said he would embarrass him, did I? Other than his HUGE punch, Arguello wouldn't bring anything out of the ordinary that Mayweather hasn't seen. Diego couldn't land on him mainly because he was just looking for one big shot and got outboxed and schooled in the process. Like you said, Arguello has great boxing skills and WILL land something on Floyd. Floyd is a master of adapting to any style and I think he will adapt to Arguello and outbox him over 12 even 15 rounds.

No you did not. But I thought you agreed to the guy I was replying to, who actually said that, since you replied to that particulaer post.

I do not think Mayweather even needs much adapting. Arguello is a great, quite complete but rather classical, and his money punch is the punch you never see landing on Mayweather. The fight would stay competitive throughout the 12-15 rounds, but it would be one of those fights, where everyone agrees who is winning. No huge shots. Maybe not even dramatic moments... Arguello would try hard and go for broke late in the fight, when behind on the cards (who would not with that right hand), but Mayweather's cold blood is his best asset, and he would not be dragged in macho exchanges.

[rebmogul]

Here in my opinion are the greatest Jr. lightweights of all-time:
Floyd Mayweather
Alexis Arguello
Sandy Saddler
Julio Cesar Chavez
Flash Elorde

Who do you feel was the greatest of these 130 pounders. If you disagree with the list, who would you subtratc and add?

arguello best jr. lightweight. chavez best lightweight, easily........

[BennyST]

This is an interesting one. Based on skill alone, you would have to say Mayweather, but the skill alone thing doesn't really apply when looking at greatest ever lists. It's about accomplishment, who was beaten and how etc etc. If you look at lists of fighters beaten Mayweather is surprisingly lacking though he spent the most time at 130 (guys like Jesus Chavez won one of the fringe titles ages after fighting Mayweather and lost it the next fight and that is the extent of his championship days). Anyway, let's just look: One thing though, I'm not going to go into fighters being shot or anything, there's too much to discuss, but I will go into whether opponents have won titles briefly; The first opponents listed are former/future or present champions, while the second bunch listed have not won a title. I shall also list any champions or top contenders fought in non title fights.

Mayweather's title wins and defenses (9): Jesus Chavez, Diego Corrales, Carlos Hernandez, Genaro Hernandez, (champs). Angel Manfredy, Carlos Rios, Juuko, Gerena, Vargas (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Tony Pep.

Arguello title win and defenses (9): Alfredo Escalera x 2, Rafael Limon, Bobby Chacon, Ruben Castillo, Rolando Navarette (champs). Rey Tam, Diego Alcala, Arturo Leon (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Vilomar Fernandez (loss), Jose Fernandez, Godfrey Stevens.

Julio C. Chavez title wins and defenses (10): Mario Martinez, Ruben Castillo, Rocky Lockridge, Juan LaPorte, Roger Mayweather, (champs). Danilo Cabrera, Faustino Barrios, Dwight Pratchett, Refugio Rojas, Francisco Da Cruz (non champs).
Noted non title fights: Jeff Bumpus.

Saddler title wins and defenses (3): Lauro Salas (champ). Diego Sosa, Orlando Zulenta (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Jimmy Carter, Ray Famechon, Flash Elorde, Tommy Collins, Del Flanagan, Paddy DeMarco, Alfredo Escobar, Miguel Acevedo, Humberto Sierra and that is quite literally just a few of them.

Flash's title wins and defenses (12, 7 of which were the unified championship):Harold Gomes x 2, Johnny Bizzaro, Teruo Kosaka x 3, Kang II Suh, Yoshiaki Numata (titlists). Joey Lopes, Sergio Caprari, Auburn Copeland, Love Alottey, Vincente Derado, (non titlists).
Noted non-title fights: Sandy Saddler, Frankie Narvaez, Ismael Laguna, Teruo Kosaka, Solomon Boysaw, Paolo Rosi among many others.

I think it comes down to Chavez, Arguello and, in my opinion, I think Flash Surpasses them both. There are a couple of guys definitely missing though. Azumah Nelson was legendary at 130. Easily as good as Mayweather and probably a fair bit better. He made fifteen defenses of his title, against much better opposition than Mayweather also. A young Gernaro Hernandez (although many think he lost it) finally beat him, but before that he had the huge rivalry with Fenech, Leija, beat Calvin Grove, Gabe Ruelas, Mario Martinez, Jim McDonnell, Juan LaPotre etc. That's as good as anyone on this list I think. I think the top five should be Flash, Arguello, Chavez, Nelson, Hernandez etc.

But, why isn't Genaro Hernandez mentioned here? Because Mayweather beat him? It was the long end of a long title reign and his last ever fight. He beat basically the same competition that Mayweather did but made a hell of a lot more defenses against better overall fighter as well. Interesting how things work.

[1SILVA]

This is an interesting one. Based on skill alone, you would have to say Mayweather, but the skill alone thing doesn't really apply when looking at greatest ever lists. It's about accomplishment, who was beaten and how etc etc. If you look at lists of fighters beaten Mayweather is surprisingly lacking though he spent the most time at 130 (guys like Jesus Chavez won one of the fringe titles ages after fighting Mayweather and lost it the next fight and that is the extent of his championship days). Anyway, let's just look: One thing though, I'm not going to go into fighters being shot or anything, there's too much to discuss, but I will go into whether opponents have won titles briefly; The first opponents listed are former/future or present champions, while the second bunch listed have not won a title. I shall also list any champions or top contenders fought in non title fights.

Mayweather's title wins and defenses (9): Jesus Chavez, Diego Corrales, Carlos Hernandez, Genaro Hernandez, (champs). Angel Manfredy, Carlos Rios, Juuko, Gerena, Vargas (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Tony Pep.

Arguello title win and defenses (9): Alfredo Escalera x 2, Rafael Limon, Bobby Chacon, Ruben Castillo, Rolando Navarette (champs). Rey Tam, Diego Alcala, Arturo Leon (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Vilomar Fernandez (loss), Jose Fernandez, Godfrey Stevens.

Julio C. Chavez title wins and defenses (10): Mario Martinez, Ruben Castillo, Rocky Lockridge, Juan LaPorte, Roger Mayweather, (champs). Danilo Cabrera, Faustino Barrios, Dwight Pratchett, Refugio Rojas, Francisco Da Cruz (non champs).
Noted non title fights: Jeff Bumpus.

Saddler title wins and defenses (3): Lauro Salas (champ). Diego Sosa, Orlando Zulenta (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Jimmy Carter, Ray Famechon, Flash Elorde, Tommy Collins, Del Flanagan, Paddy DeMarco, Alfredo Escobar, Miguel Acevedo, Humberto Sierra and that is quite literally just a few of them.

Flash's title wins and defenses (12, 7 of which were the unified championship):Harold Gomes x 2, Johnny Bizzaro, Teruo Kosaka x 3, Kang II Suh, Yoshiaki Numata (titlists). Joey Lopes, Sergio Caprari, Auburn Copeland, Love Alottey, Vincente Derado, (non titlists).
Noted non-title fights: Sandy Saddler, Frankie Narvaez, Ismael Laguna, Teruo Kosaka, Solomon Boysaw, Paolo Rosi among many others.

I think it comes down to Chavez, Arguello and, in my opinion, I think Flash Surpasses them both. There are a couple of guys definitely missing though. Azumah Nelson was legendary at 130. Easily as good as Mayweather and probably a fair bit better. He made fifteen defenses of his title, against much better opposition than Mayweather also. A young Gernaro Hernandez (although many think he lost it) finally beat him, but before that he had the huge rivalry with Fenech, Leija, beat Calvin Grove, Gabe Ruelas, Mario Martinez, Jim McDonnell, Juan LaPotre etc. That's as good as anyone on this list I think. I think the top five should be Flash, Arguello, Chavez, Nelson, Hernandez etc.

But, why isn't Genaro Hernandez mentioned here? Because Mayweather beat him? It was the long end of a long title reign and his last ever fight. He beat basically the same competition that Mayweather did but made a hell of a lot more defenses against better overall fighter as well. Interesting how things work.

Excellent analysis except that Ruben Castillo was never a world champion. He lost his four title shots(Arguello, Salvador Sanchez, Juan Laporte and Chavez), but was a very good fighter during the 1980's. Arguello beat him in a very tough fight. By the time he fought Chavez, he had already been through one too many wars.

[wmute]

This is an interesting one. Based on skill alone, you would have to say Mayweather, but the skill alone thing doesn't really apply when looking at greatest ever lists. It's about accomplishment, who was beaten and how etc etc. If you look at lists of fighters beaten Mayweather is surprisingly lacking though he spent the most time at 130 (guys like Jesus Chavez won one of the fringe titles ages after fighting Mayweather and lost it the next fight and that is the extent of his championship days). Anyway, let's just look: One thing though, I'm not going to go into fighters being shot or anything, there's too much to discuss, but I will go into whether opponents have won titles briefly; The first opponents listed are former/future or present champions, while the second bunch listed have not won a title. I shall also list any champions or top contenders fought in non title fights.

Mayweather's title wins and defenses (9): Jesus Chavez, Diego Corrales, Carlos Hernandez, Genaro Hernandez, (champs). Angel Manfredy, Carlos Rios, Juuko, Gerena, Vargas (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Tony Pep.

Arguello title win and defenses (9): Alfredo Escalera x 2, Rafael Limon, Bobby Chacon, Ruben Castillo, Rolando Navarette (champs). Rey Tam, Diego Alcala, Arturo Leon (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Vilomar Fernandez (loss), Jose Fernandez, Godfrey Stevens.

Julio C. Chavez title wins and defenses (10): Mario Martinez, Ruben Castillo, Rocky Lockridge, Juan LaPorte, Roger Mayweather, (champs). Danilo Cabrera, Faustino Barrios, Dwight Pratchett, Refugio Rojas, Francisco Da Cruz (non champs).
Noted non title fights: Jeff Bumpus.

Saddler title wins and defenses (3): Lauro Salas (champ). Diego Sosa, Orlando Zulenta (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Jimmy Carter, Ray Famechon, Flash Elorde, Tommy Collins, Del Flanagan, Paddy DeMarco, Alfredo Escobar, Miguel Acevedo, Humberto Sierra and that is quite literally just a few of them.

Flash's title wins and defenses (12, 7 of which were the unified championship):Harold Gomes x 2, Johnny Bizzaro, Teruo Kosaka x 3, Kang II Suh, Yoshiaki Numata (titlists). Joey Lopes, Sergio Caprari, Auburn Copeland, Love Alottey, Vincente Derado, (non titlists).
Noted non-title fights: Sandy Saddler, Frankie Narvaez, Ismael Laguna, Teruo Kosaka, Solomon Boysaw, Paolo Rosi among many others.

I think it comes down to Chavez, Arguello and, in my opinion, I think Flash Surpasses them both. There are a couple of guys definitely missing though. Azumah Nelson was legendary at 130. Easily as good as Mayweather and probably a fair bit better. He made fifteen defenses of his title, against much better opposition than Mayweather also. A young Gernaro Hernandez (although many think he lost it) finally beat him, but before that he had the huge rivalry with Fenech, Leija, beat Calvin Grove, Gabe Ruelas, Mario Martinez, Jim McDonnell, Juan LaPotre etc. That's as good as anyone on this list I think. I think the top five should be Flash, Arguello, Chavez, Nelson, Hernandez etc.

But, why isn't Genaro Hernandez mentioned here? Because Mayweather beat him? It was the long end of a long title reign and his last ever fight. He beat basically the same competition that Mayweather did but made a hell of a lot more defenses against better overall fighter as well. Interesting how things work.

Genaro Hernandez was not young when he beat Nelson. It was an overdue match if you ask me...

[713832281]

he may not be the best ever, but PBF is the best 130 lber ever.

[BennyST]

Genaro Hernandez was not young when he beat Nelson. It was an overdue match if you ask me...

Typo. It was meant to be younger. It was definitely overdue though, I agree.

[BennyST]

Excellent analysis except that Ruben Castillo was never a world champion. He lost his four title shots(Arguello, Salvador Sanchez, Juan Laporte and Chavez), but was a very good fighter during the 1980's. Arguello beat him in a very tough fight. By the time he fought Chavez, he had already been through one too many wars.

Yes, yes. Indeed. A little like Jesus Chavez. In most of his title shots, he met very good fighters that he just didn't have a chance against. Castillo was better than Chavez I believe, and eventually Chavez did win a title, but Castillo was unlucky to be in a time of brilliant champions and all his shots happened to be against the best of them.

[Steak]

Arguello stops Chavez inside of 10 assuming no referees on Don King's payroll are fixing the fight. Expect Chavez to cry for his binky afterwards.

Poet

give me a break. Arguello was dropped and taken to a split decision against a 21 year old Jose Luis Ramirez, who was Chavez's sparring partner. and you think Arguello would stop Chavez within 10?

dont make me laugh. he couldnt even stop Ruben Castillo within 10, and while Castillo was a very good fighter he was still at best a lesser Chavez.

regardless, I have Arguello #1 based on his competition, and then Mayweather. shout outs to JCC, Azumah Nelson, and Saddler. never saw much of Elorde, so cant say.