best boxing match of all time.

[LondonRingRules]

=======Foreman went inactive for 15 months after losing to Ali then looked like **** against Lyle. Got dropped twice in one round and was hurt repeatedly in the fight. Was Foreman supposed to get a return fight based on this **** performance?==============

** Foreman was inactive because he couldn't secure a rematch. Just think Hagler trying to chase down Leonard. Turned out to be impossible

Foreman was not inactive for the time frame you list. He fought a highly publicized exhibition against 5 consecutive heavies, most of whom he KOed. He was publically calling out Ali on TV, and Ali was there hurling racial insults at his comp and generally acting the part of the typical NOI ass he was back then when his buttons were punched up.

At any rate, Foreman knocked Lyle cold, something Ali couldn't do. Foreman only needed half as many rounds as Ali needed before a kindly ref took pity on Ali and stopped Lyle. Lyle had dominated Ali, winning most every round before Lyle decided to showboat with some ropa dope.

You're gonna have see what else you can pull from your shorts if you wanna continue to try to remake Ali into more than he was, which was a pretty fine heavy, a top 5 for sure, but a bit of a joke in the last half of his comeback.

It's there for everyone to see: He was not blocking that many shots.

[SquareCircle]

#1 Holyfield vs Qawi
#2 Foreman vs Lyle

[Heckler]

Im not making Ali out to be bigger then he was. I know his career and performances were rather **** after 75. From 70-75 he achieved alot, he beat Frazier twice genuinely and took out Foreman much to your disbelief obviously. The whole boxing community was 'in it' were they? because it seems every match whether it be foreman, frazier, or lyle its magically setup so Ali wins. But oh no, of course there is some kind of special trivial circumstance that only you know of that allowed him to win thus we should discredit it. The fact that you went on to say that the fight against Foreman was essentially a fix shows how delusional you really are. After Manila he should of retired, but he didn't and due to his declining he fought poorly and got some questionable decs. And?. His career and performance between 66-75 was amazing.

[Heckler]

And Lyle got beaten fair and square, he got hit by a big right hand and was visibly really hurt by it... that punch itself nearly knocked him out, Ali was hitting him with hard flurries and there was no need for it to continue, Lyle was gone after that right and was recieving constant pressure.. The ref made the right dec.

[LondonRingRules]

Im not making Ali out to be bigger then he was. I know his career and performances were rather **** after 75. From 70-75 he achieved alot, he beat Frazier twice genuinely and took out Foreman much to your disbelief obviously. The whole boxing community was 'in it' were they? because it seems every match whether it be foreman, frazier, or lyle its magically setup so Ali wins. But oh no, of course there is some kind of special trivial circumstance that only you know of that allowed him to win thus we should discredit it. The fact that you went on to say that the fight against Foreman was essentially a fix shows how delusional you really are. After Manila he should of retired, but he didn't and due to his declining he fought poorly and got some questionable decs. And?. His career and performance between 66-75 was amazing.

** No, I didn't say it was a fix, but at best all the conditions strangely favored Ali in the bout, and at worst, boxing has a rich tradition of fixes and I doubt precious few in boxing would deny King has fixed more than his fair share of modern bouts.

I give Ali credit for outlasting George, but after 74 he looked like crap. Wepner roughed him bad, Lyle outboxed him, Frazier beat him up, Young outboxed him and made him look ugly, Norton outhustled him, Evangelista/Shavers made him look old and tired. I just don't see how a fighter can win all of the above fights without something being passed under the table.

Fact is Bonavena also roughed him up bad in 71, but we always excuse that his rustiness coming back. So I can agree with generally what you are saying, but I would cut off a year and make it 66-74 were Ali at his prime or close to it in championship form. In that frame he was 3-2 against the best fighters of the era. Not exactly the invincible legend some of his fans prop him up to be, but considering the strength of the era, pretty good over all.

[czars_salad]

thrilla in manila.

they were fighting under extreme heat (literally) imagine fighting in a tropical country, in an enclosed arena where the airconditioning did not work, and yet deliver a killer of a fight!

[Heckler]

I cant think of how the conditions favoured Ali in 74' at all? a 16 foot ring opposed to a 20 foot ring? It was a boxing match, no dodgy decs, and a knockout... Ali won that, fair and square, no-1 can take that fight, or Manila away from him. 66-75, he showed skill, execution of ringcraft but mainly guts in the ring in 75... Watching two past their prime-fighters giving everything they have left in the tank was great to watch, he still had something left in him at that stage. After this he was completely shot.

[Heckler]

I give Ali credit for outlasting George, but after 74 he looked like crap. Wepner roughed him bad, Lyle outboxed him, Frazier beat him up, Young outboxed him and made him look ugly, Norton outhustled him, Evangelista/Shavers made him look old and tired. I just don't see how a fighter can win all of the above fights without something being passed under the table.

He beat a few of the above, he beat wepner... and by wepners own admission he beat him and also by his own admission the body shot knockdown, was not a legitimate one. After reviewing the Shavers fight once more i have concluded that it should of atleast been a draw. He should of lost the fight against Young. Ron Lyle lost, he was space-travelling after being hit by that right and was getting stung by flurries... it was one of the few occasions in the 70s where a referee has stopped a fight when they should of... better then watching a defenseless guy get the **** punched out of him which was a regular occurance in that era of boxing and before hand. Bonavena roughed him up yes, but the fact of the matter is he raised his hand at the end of the match... he outboxed him, and to the amazement of the boxing world knocked captain-granitejaw himself out.

[Heckler]

Its not Alis fault that he occasionally got suspect decs... Ali was always humble in defeat, he was in FOTC. Although arrogant, i dont believe Ali is a fighter that would allow a fight to be fixed... his ego was too big, he was too proud. He was bigger then boxing, he did alot for the popularity of the sport and no doubt the boxing community wanted to keep him around hence such dec's arise. I detest the notion that Ali would do anything out of the ring to increase his chances of getting the nod.

[smasher]

**
I give Ali credit for outlasting George, but after 74 he looked like crap.

The Foreman fight did not physically 'soften' Ali up but it did have 3 psychologically detrimental effects on Ali.

1) Beating Foreman made Ali believe he was a KO puncher (which he wasn't). Examples of this are his fights with Frazier III, and Norton II where he planted and tried for early KO's and Spinks I where he believed he could throw away early rounds and still have the power for a late KO.

2) Beating Foreman made Ali believe that the rope-a-dope strategy was a legitimate tactic that could be used again effectively (which it wasn't). Examples are Frazier III and Spinks I where the opponents did not tire and Lyle and Shavers where they flat out refused to be lured into punching themselves out.

3) Beating Foreman meant being Champion and the Ali Circus went full swing with too many leeches, hanger-ons, partying, womanizing and god knows what else. Ali's over-confidence caused him to focus less on training and fighting and more on being a celebrity and basking in the glow and glamour of it. Examples of Ali's poor preparation was Wepner, Young and Spinks I. I believe the only fights Ali seriously trained for from 74-78 were Norton III and Spinks II.