Beating Muhammad Ali

[ForemanCrossArm]

Um. I can run with quotes all day.. Is it any wonder that liston went from being an 8-1 fav. a week before the re-match to a 2-1 fav. at the time of the fight...... ?

[StarshipTrooper]

Um. I can run with quotes all day.. Is it any wonder that liston went from being an 8-1 fav. a week before the re-match to a 2-1 fav. at the time of the fight...... ?

Now that we've dodged the issue (see previous post), we have an offer to give MORE anecdotal stories that are NOT facts.

Poet

[ForemanCrossArm]

Chuck Wepner on Sonny and Ali [take into account he faught Ali closer (much closer) to his prime than Sonny was to his when they mixed it up in 1970] - "I would have to say Liston was a lot tougher to fight. Ali didn't hit like Liston. Liston was the only man that ever hurt me."

Sonny when asked if he lost any friends after the Clay fight (and this response was dead-red into the eyes of Jack Olsen (SI author)) - "No. I had my friends in my pocket."

In a conversation with Joel Blickman (Bernie Glickman's son, the guy who handled Sonny's mob transitions from St. Louis to Philly) Joel said, "He (Glickman) called me up before the fight. He knew I liked to bet and that I loved Liston. He said, 'Don't bet. There's something wrong. I don't know what it is.'"

Even his close friend and sparring partner Foneda Fox knew it was a fix, and was never really that close with him afterwards, as he described it, "He told me, 'I've got to lose one, and when I do, I'm gonna tell you." .. "So, this is the only thing that I hold against Sonny, is that he did not tell me when he was actually going to lose. And I'm back here betting."

His bodyguard Lowell Powell (who tracked down his lost daughter) - "He said, 'Don't put any more money on me, man." [after the fight in reply to why he didn't tell him he was going to throw the fight] "He said, 'With your big mouth, we'd both be wearing concrete suits."

I can go on and on. Why don't you just pick up a copy of The Devil and Sonny Liston and finally get the proof you need.

[StarshipTrooper]

Chuck Wepner on Sonny and Ali [take into account he faught Ali closer (much closer) to his prime than Sonny was to his when they mixed it up in 1970] - "I would have to say Liston was a lot tougher to fight. Ali didn't hit like Liston. Liston was the only man that ever hurt me."

Anecdotal, not factual evidence.

Sonny when asked if he lost any friends after the Clay fight (and this response was dead-red into the eyes of Jack Olsen (SI author)) - "No. I had my friends in my pocket."

Anecdotal, not factual evidence.

In a conversation with Joel Blickman (Bernie Glickman's son, the guy who handled Sonny's mob transitions from St. Louis to Philly) Joel said, "He (Glickman) called me up before the fight. He knew I liked to bet and that I loved Liston. He said, 'Don't bet. There's something wrong. I don't know what it is.'"

Anecdotal, not factual evidence.

Even his close friend and sparring partner Foneda Fox knew it was a fix, and was never really that close with him afterwards, as he described it, "He told me, 'I've got to lose one, and when I do, I'm gonna tell you." .. "So, this is the only thing that I hold against Sonny, is that he did not tell me when he was actually going to lose. And I'm back here betting."

Anectdotal, not factual evidence.

His bodyguard Lowell Powell (who tracked down his lost daughter) - "He said, 'Don't put any more money on me, man." [after the fight in reply to why he didn't tell him he was going to throw the fight] "He said, 'With your big mouth, we'd both be wearing concrete suits."

Anectdotal, not factual evidence.

I can go on and on. Why don't you just pick up a copy of The Devil and Sonny Liston and finally get the proof you need.

In a court of law all of these quotes would be thrown out as hearsay. All you are doing is using anecdotal accounts to make gratuitous assertions, assertions that may be equally gratuitously denied.

Poet

[wmute]

Although I have louis and ali in my top two, louis would not do good against ali. Billy conn had louis on the ropes in their first fight and almost had him, imagine what a heavier, harder hitting conn would do to louis face for 15 rounds. The ONLY fighters that would give ali problems are the ones like frazier, so dempsy, marciano, tyson and frazier are the only ones who could possibily win (less chance for dempsy and tyson cause they never paced themselves for a long fight, and usually burned out early.)

i definitely agree: Louis is great, but not necessarily the best style to beat Ali. I would exclude Tyson from the list, because Tyson would have ****ed his mind up before round 1 started. (Young Mike could actually go the distance effectively when still disciplined)

[Brassangel]

Like I said, while I don't agree with everything in the article, it does prove that Louis defeating Ali was more possible than people are usually willing to accept. He (the author) also never takes into account the simple fact that Joe's low left hand would leave him open to Ali lead rights down the pipe all night long.

*On the subject of a Liston-Clay "fix": There really is no substantial, hard proof to say that Liston threw the fight for fear of his life, or monetary purposes. While the quotes presented are antecdotal accounts of hearsay, that could be the only evidence needed to suggest something was screwy. A "good" mafia of organized crime probably eliminated any black-and-white evidence, if indeed a fix was in place. I'm not saying there was a fix, but hearsay is sometimes based on real-life accounts. We are not a court of law, we are speculative observers.

[Frazier's 15th round]

Frazier whipped Ali like he stole something. 11 rounds to 4. Also, Frazier only had one good arm, one good eye, and was suffering from hypertension at the time of the fight. Imagine what a healthy Frazier would have done. Probably an early knockout, kind of like Jimmy Ellis.

[butterfly1964]

Frazier whipped Ali like he stole something. 11 rounds to 4. Also, Frazier only had one good arm, one good eye, and was suffering from hypertension at the time of the fight. Imagine what a healthy Frazier would have done. Probably an early knockout, kind of like Jimmy Ellis.

Go to sleep, little child.

[butterfly1964]

** Any fighter is beatable. Ali made his reputation against 3 fighters, Liston, Frazier, and Foreman, and it was the Foreman fight he credits as earning him the most respect, and it's only after that fight that people start making him out to be the best ever, invincible, the greatest, ect.

3 of his 4 KDs came on left hooks thrown by quick heavies. OK, Louis, Dempsey, Tyson, prime Liston not on the take or fearing for his life, Lewis, Wlad, Foreman, all have powerful left hooks though Lewis, Liston and Foreman's are the slowest, and of course Frazier who won a wide decision over Ali in their first encounter and always gave him hell.

Then you had Norton who should have notched all 3 of his bouts against Ali in a fair world. Norton also had a quick powerful left hook, but he never knocked Ali down with it, though that may have been the punch that busted his jaw. Norton also had a crablike defense that was hard for Ali to figure out. Of course Ali might have been better against Norton before his layoff, but just on the timeline I doubt they would have ever fought until the time they actually did meet because Norton started so much later, so I feel this series was representative of the way the ring action would have gone.

Then you had the jabbers, Holmes, Wlad, Foreman when he wanted, Louis, Lewis, Tunney, even Tyson before his training went to hell, prime Liston.

Then you have the pressure fighters, Frazier, Dempsey, Tyson, Rocky, and yes, even Norton put some pressure on him.

Then the counter punchers, Louis, Dempsey, Tunney, Tyson.

Of course Ali was also one of the most naturally gifted heavies in history, so it's not like he's going to lose every bout. He's a good bet to win most of a series against many of those listed, but he'd be losing a few, and might even suffer a couple TKOs too.

Maybe those bouts will take place some day in heavyweight heaven.

Get off the Jack Daniels, loser.

[ForemanCrossArm]

*On the subject of a Liston-Clay "fix": There really is no substantial, hard proof to say that Liston threw the fight for fear of his life, or monetary purposes. While the quotes presented are antecdotal accounts of hearsay, that could be the only evidence needed to suggest something was screwy. A "good" mafia of organized crime probably eliminated any black-and-white evidence, if indeed a fix was in place. I'm not saying there was a fix, but hearsay is sometimes based on real-life accounts. We are not a court of law, we are speculative observers.

I'll actually reply to your post, as Poet didn't even use the term anecdotal properly, especially in the sense he was attempting to dispell actual quotes from actual people that were actually there.

Anecdotal is one person, like, say, me (for instance, and I just say (with no evidence to back up my claim), "Liston threw the fight." It isn't even "hearsay" as that is often tied to some facts, if I were being anecdotal it would be closer to stereotyping or mass generalization.

Those quotes, most of them having backing with actual semi-hard evidence (from people having mob-ties, to Wepner fighting a 42 y/o Liston compared to a 32 y/o Ali, to his CLOSE friends, etc..). Sure you could call it jello, but, hell, jello stands on its own.