Rating old heavyweights?

[ben41193]

How can you rate guys like dempsey and sullivan since they never foguht black opponants.

[Kayjay's Ghost]

The same way you rate guys like Foreman and Holmes who never fought Eastern Bloc opponents.

[Nacho_Analstain]

whats not fighting black people got to do with it?

[ben41193]

whats not fighting black people got to do with it?

Well think about it. Dempsey may have been the best white heaavyweight but what about all the black challengers out there. Maybe they could have beaten him.

[McGrain]

Well think about it. Dempsey may have been the best white heaavyweight but what about all the black challengers out there. Maybe they could have beaten him.

I agree. If Demsepy had fought and beaten Wills he cracks the all time top ten heavyweights with ease. But excluding a whole series of potentially contendors on the grounds of race virtually destroyed his legacy for me.

Think about it: if you either of the Klit's refused to fight the top black challengers, how hightly would you rate them?

[Terry A]

Why is it that you think that Wills (and other very good blacks of that era such as Sam McVey and Sam Langford) are so superior to the whites of the same era? So unless every boxer fought blacks, they can't fight??? Unless they beat a black man, the black man is automatically superior?? You have no respect for Jack Dempsey???????

Here is a link to Harry Wills' fight record....http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=17615.

Hope this helps you see that Wills was not some undefeated Tyson-like monster who never lost.
Please, don't underestimate the greatness of Dempsey. Even blacks give him his due place in history.

[McGrain]

Why is it that you think that Wills (and other very good blacks of that era such as Sam McVey and Sam Langford) are so superior to the whites of the same era? So unless every boxer fought blacks, they can't fight??? Unless they beat a black man, the black man is automatically superior?? You have no respect for Jack Dempsey???????

Please, don't underestimate the greatness of Dempsey. Even blacks give him his due place in history.

Of course Dempsey has his place in history. But it would have been a great deal higher if he didn't fail to fight some of the greatest fighters of his day - whatevever the reason. The reason doesn't matter to me. Demspey didn't prove himself better than many cracking fighters from his era (and one in Wills who may well have beaten him) so this makes it harder to rate him above other great fighters since then.

[Underboss]

Well think about it. Dempsey may have been the best white heaavyweight but what about all the black challengers out there. Maybe they could have beaten him.

he's white and native american.

[Terry A]

Of course Dempsey has his place in history. But it would have been a great deal higher if he didn't fail to fight some of the greatest fighters of his day - whatevever the reason. The reason doesn't matter to me. Demspey didn't prove himself better than many cracking fighters from his era (and one in Wills who may well have beaten him) so this makes it harder to rate him above other great fighters since then.

The thing about Wills that makes me doubt that he could survive against Dempsey, let alone beat him, is the fact that he was KO'ed 5 times in his career. Look back at his record a 2nd time and look at the guys who knocked him out. And check out THEIR records as well. They were not heavy hitters and yet they knocked him out. Imagine what bombers like Dempsey would have done to him.
Do I think Harry Wills was a very good fighter? Absolutley.
Do I think he could have beaten Dempsey? No way.
Would Dempsey's all time standing be even better had he beaten Wills? Yes.
Will we ever no for sure? Unfortunately no...

PS- Glad to have you posting with us McGrain!

[Kayjay's Ghost]

It's funny that you mentioned Klitschko, because that proves my point exactly. All the top heavies today are from the eastern bloc, so if Dempsey's record is tainted by the color line, so is Ali's, Foreman's etc. by the Iron Curtain. But none of their records are tainted.