At MW:Is SRR still greater than Monzon and Hagler

[cple]

U under-estimate both guys. From the 1920's-1960's, you had a bunch of ex-welterweights come in and become champ at 160. The rest of the champs were mostly short term too. However monzon and hagler dominated in thier eras and they crushed all those contenders. Many of thier opponents were world champs too. Guys like hamsho, mugabi, roldan, scypion, oblijimas are all good fighters that came at the wrong time. Same thing goes for minter, valdez,briscoe, anutofermo and hugo corro. They were either crushed by either monzon or hagler and dint have the oppourtunity to prove themselves as Legends. Let me remind u that hamsho destoryed a 25 year old benitez right before the title shot.

And i think you underestimate the middleweight Robinson and his era. I don't deny the ability of Monzon and Hagler's opposition. They were damn fine, and they're a major part of why Monzon and Hagler are top 5 middleweights of all-time. But do you honestly believe Hagler and Monzon prevented other fighters of their time from being legends? Were Mugabi, Hamsho, etc. really the stuff of legends? Aside from Rodrigo Valdez, that is; he was an incredible fighter who had the misfortune of fighting in the same era as an even more incredible fighter. Heck, as is, Valdez is a legit top 20 middleweight ever. But still, i don't view him as being on the same level as a Jake LaMotta.

In the end, I simply believe Robinson fought in a better era. That's just how i see it.

[brownpimp88]

And i think you underestimate the middleweight Robinson and his era. I don't deny the ability of Monzon and Hagler's opposition. They were damn fine, and they're a major part of why Monzon and Hagler are top 5 middleweights of all-time. But do you honestly believe Hagler and Monzon prevented other fighters of their time from being legends? Were Mugabi, Hamsho, etc. really the stuff of legends? Aside from Rodrigo Valdez, that is; he was an incredible fighter who had the misfortune of fighting in the same era as an even more incredible fighter. Heck, as is, Valdez is a legit top 20 middleweight ever. But still, i don't view him as being on the same level as a Jake LaMotta.

In the end, I simply believe Robinson fought in a better era. That's just how i see it.

robinson is just getting a top 5 spot due to his rep at 147. If he was based on his actual middleweight record, which is 65-17-5, you cant say he's better. Another thing, guys like graziano and others tend to get overrated due to the fact that they fought in robinson's era, i'm not the only one that says this.

[K-DOGG]

robinson is just getting a top 5 spot due to his rep at 147. If he was based on his actual middleweight record, which is 65-17-5, you cant say he's better. Another thing, guys like graziano and others tend to get overrated due to the fact that they fought in robinson's era, i'm not the only one that says this.

Not true. Robinson, at middleweight, defeated Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fulmer, Carl "Bobo" Olson, among others, and won the belt 5 times. You're obscuring the truth of Robinson's best days at 160 by lump-summing his record through 1965. The bulk of his losses at Middlweight came after his 37th birthday....hardly releveant. That's like taking Evander Holyfield's record after the Lewis defeats and includeing them as evidence of his lack of success at heavyweight.

[brownpimp88]

Not true. Robinson, at middleweight, defeated Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fulmer, Carl "Bobo" Olson, among others, and won the belt 5 times. You're obscuring the truth of Robinson's best days at 160 by lump-summing his record through 1965. The bulk of his losses at Middlweight came after his 37th birthday....hardly releveant. That's like taking Evander Holyfield's record after the Lewis defeats and includeing them as evidence of his lack of success at heavyweight.

Randy Turpin is not held in that high of a regard, he got famous for beating sugar ray the first time. Jake Lamotta basically made his name off the fact that he beat sugar the first time. You always like playing devil's advocate and now i'm doing it.

By the way you are the one that says holy losses the big fight, when in fact he got the best of qawi and tyson, and many other champs. Bowe and lewis were the only ones that got the best of him. Holyfield beat better heavyweight champs than tunney, dempsey and jack johnson. To say he isnt top 10 at heavyweight is a joke.

[The Noose]

robinson is just getting a top 5 spot due to his rep at 147. If he was based on his actual middleweight record, which is 65-17-5, you cant say he's better. Another thing, guys like graziano and others tend to get overrated due to the fact that they fought in robinson's era, i'm not the only one that says this.

I dont think thats true.
Graziano was a greta fighter in his own right, plus his most famous fights were against Tony Zale.
Of the many many opponents Robinson faced, the names that are remembered and that stand out are recognised as great fighters for a good reason. Not just because they fought Robinson.

[brownpimp88]

I dont think thats true.
Graziano was a greta fighter in his own right, plus his most famous fights were against Tony Zale.
Of the many many opponents Robinson faced, the names that are remembered and that stand out are recognised as great fighters for a good reason. Not just because they fought Robinson.

i dont see turpin or olson on 100 best fighters list. Jake lammota is good but hes built on the fact he beat sugar, there is no doubt about that.

[K-DOGG]

Randy Turpin is not held in that high of a regard, he got famous for beating sugar ray the first time. Jake Lamotta basically made his name off the fact that he beat sugar the first time. You always like playing devil's advocate and now i'm doing it.

By the way you are the one that says holy losses the big fight, when in fact he got the best of qawi and tyson, and many other champs. Bowe and lewis were the only ones that got the best of him. Holyfield beat better heavyweight champs than tunney, dempsey and jack johnson. To say he isnt top 10 at heavyweight is a joke.

Not playing devil's advocate here...stating facts.

LaMotta had built up his own reputation at 160, cleaning out the divison of it's best fighters, such as Jose Basora, Holman Williams, Tommy Bell, Tony Janiro, Tommy Yarosz, & Marcel Cerdan (champ) among others. If anything, Robinson gained middleweight credibility with his wins over LaMotta.

Also, while it is true that the Robinson win lionized Turpin, he was a top middlweight of the day, as was Olson, who won the Middleweight Championship during Robinson's retirement after his loss to Maxim.

Regarding Holyfield, he didn't beat a prime Tyson, so I find it ironic that the bulk of his heavyweight reputation is built on that win and his one win over Rid**** Bowe.

[brownpimp88]

Not playing devil's advocate here...stating facts.

LaMotta had built up his own reputation at 160, cleaning out the divison of it's best fighters, such as Jose Basora, Holman Williams, Tommy Bell, Tony Janiro, Tommy Yarosz, & Marcel Cerdan (champ) among others. If anything, Robinson gained middleweight credibility with his wins over LaMotta.

Also, while it is true that the Robinson win lionized Turpin, he was a top middlweight of the day, as was Olson, who won the Middleweight Championship during Robinson's retirement after his loss to Maxim.

Regarding Holyfield, he didn't beat a prime Tyson, so I find it ironic that the bulk of his heavyweight reputation is built on that win and his one win over Rid**** Bowe.

holyfiled beat like 12 different heavyweight champs, regardless of when they were in thier prime or not. I think its more impressvie than tunney and johnson's heavyweight run. Tunney is a top 5 175er, he doesnt belong in heavyweight rankings though, thats just the way it is.

[K-DOGG]

holyfiled beat like 12 different heavyweight champs, regardless of when they were in thier prime or not. I think its more impressvie than tunney and johnson's heavyweight run. Tunney is a top 5 175er, he doesnt belong in heavyweight rankings though, thats just the way it is.

Tunney lost to no heavyweight while besting the top contenders of the day as well as the reigning world champion and had only one loss on his record, which equaled over 87 fights while displaying skills that can only be considered the foundation for modern fighters; he was well ahead of his time. One loss in 88 fights as opposed to Holyfield's record....hmmm.

Johnson, on the other hand, fought and beat the toughest fighters of his era, both Black and White: Frank Childs, George Gardiner, Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette, Sam Langford, Jim Flynn, Al Kaufman, Frank Moran and no telling how many others. He was also ahead of his time and, like Tunney, fought many, many more times that Evander Holyfield with a better win percentage. He had 126 fights....how's Holy doin'?

Holyfield has lost to Bowe twice of three, Lewis twice of two, Moorer once of two as oppossed to wins over a post-prison Tyson and a 1 point majority verdict over Rid**** Bowe, who was one of the sports biggest underachievers. His biggest wins at heavyweigtht are over Bowe, Mercer, Moorer, and a past his best Tyson....oh, and a 42 year old Foreman.





....no comparison.

[Kid Achilles]

Robinson fought as a middleweight in a more talent rich era than either Monzon or Hagler. I would like to see how someone could argue otherwise.