Philadelphia Jack O’Brien: The Master Puzzler

[Yogi]

You'd tell him to go back to flipping burgers or consider a career pumping gas. Honestly, what can you say positive about this clip and don't say footspeed because the film appears sped up.

Well, I've seen that clip before a few times, but I never thought to judge it much and too closely, to be honest with you.

But if you're making a judgement on that short clip of a sparring session I assume you've changed your stance from yesterday or the day before regarding sparring sessions, yes?

If so, I'd like to send you a short clip I have of Ali laying on the ropes taking unorthodox punches during a sparring session when he was in Zaire, and I'd ask the same of you concerning Ali...

Ok, with the way he's actively moving around & throwing punches from different or awkward angles, I'd say that that video of Greb (I'll assume it's Greb who you want me to look at) at least bares some resemblance to what the written word is said about him in his time (including the elbow that I thought I saw...I also thought I saw a Greb smile towards the end of it). History has made no secret about him having a unique & high paced style of his own, and they certainly don't make him out to be a pretty boxing master or anything even close to that. Whatever he had worked for him, though, as his achievements bare witness to.

Anyways, I brought up Langford in my previous post, so if this is going to be an early 20th century vs. early 21st century arguement, that's the guy I'd like to represent in this thread as the greatest fighter of that early era...And if this does become a discussion on Langford, I hope it goes well beyond what's only left of video (pluses & minues, all things considered...not just a short little video clip). But in any event, although there's only about three minutes of actual fight footage on this clip, here's the clearest video that I've yet seen on Langford (I'm betting you've seen it before);

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TTCPz0nBeY

[SABBATH]

No, I haven't changed my stance on sparring sessions regarding putting much stock on guys getting floored or using their sessions to work on a particular aspect of fighting which was the point I was attempting to make on the previous thread.

I made reference to watching Aaron Pryor spar. I saw him spar between 50-100 rounds and he was still Aaron Pryor. His footwork, defence, the way he threw punches etc. The difference was he brawled more with one guy (the amateur), he boxed more with another (Jerome Artis) and he mixed it up in and out with another (Darryl Anthony). The bottom line is that he still fought like Aaron Pryor.

All I am asking for is an honest and objective breakdown of both fighters from what you can see from this particular clip which shows both fighters being active both in their punching and their movement. While Greb was apparently a swarmer, O'Brien was considered a master boxer, so if you would rather make objective observations only of O'Brien (it's Jack's thread anyways) I'll understand.

You can still get a basic idea of a fighter's style by watching them 'actively' spar, whether it's Pryor, Louis, Toney, Tyson and yes Greb and O'Brien.

Since you saw the need to bring Ali into another thread I did a quick search for Ali sparring and found this brief 47 second clip (1:00-1:47) of a session with Jimmy Ellis from 1966. The film quality isn't great but since both fighters are actively engaging I can get a pretty good feel for each guy's style.

Regarding Ali, I can still note stylistic subtleties like his tendancy to tap his forehead with his right glove, his right elbow going out to the side away from his body when he jabs, how he pulls back from punches, doesn't hook to the body but will jab to the body, ties a guy up in close, walks him to mid ring and pushes him off etc...I can also note the obvious things like stance, balance, quick hands, good movement (in and out of range feints as well as lateral mobility), head and hand feints, the way he will dip left from an opponent's jab when moving clockwise, accurate jab and sharp right hand, all things that I've seen in many of his fights, not to mention his overall mobile counterpunching style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb-1FXctaIA

Not too suprisingly, this short sparring clip actually stylistically mirrors their 'actual' fight somewhat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3YAoUVbPpc

There's my breakdown of an Ali-Ellis sparring session. What is yours regarding Greb-O'Brien? Be honest.

[K-DOGG]

Our perception of famous people can sometimes be cruel and misplaced, often fashioned by the hasty and not always reliable yardstick of gut instinct. [details]

Another excellent piece of fistic literature from Mike Casey....unlike Philadelphia Jack, apparently , Mike never disappoints.



On a serious note, I am of the opinion that O'Brien was, most assuredly, the real deal. That's not to say there weren't some shady contests back in those days....there still are LOL!!! But; from all I've read...this piece included....Jack was a technician of the highest order, and could give any middleweight or light-heavyweight who's ever lived a fight due to his speed, skill, and unusually individualistic style..for lack of a better way of putting it.

Great read.

[Yogi]

All I am asking for is an honest and objective breakdown of both fighters from what you can see from this particular clip which shows both fighters being active both in their punching and their movement. While Greb was apparently a swarmer, O'Brien was considered a master boxer, so if you would rather make objective observations only of O'Brien (it's Jack's thread anyways) I'll understand.

I already said anything I'm going to say in regards to how Greb looks and how he bares some resemblance to what is written about him, and if you're asking me for my "objective breakdown" of Jack O'Brien (based only on that footage), who was nearly 50 years old at the time that video was shot, had been retired for over a dozen years, and who bares very little resemblance stylewise to what little actual fight footage I've seen of him, then I'm afraid that you are simply asking for the impossible from me...

There'd be nothing objective at all if I was to judge O'Brien on only that sparring footage, but if you think you can do so, then hey...all the power to you, my friend.

P.S. Judging by your description of that Ali/Ellis sparring footage, I take it that that's not the sparring session between them where "Ali was knocked nutty" and "would have been knocked out if it had been a real fight" (to quote the Ohio News Journal), yes?

Ok, with that I'll leave the Floyd Patterson of sparring alone for the rest of this thread, I promise.

[Yogi]

Sabbath;

To appease my own curiosity, what are your thoughts/views as to what you only see on video in regards to some of Greb's contemporaries who were active when he was...Guys like Gene Tunney, Benny Leonard, Jimmy Wilde, Pancho Villa, Mike Gibbons, Tommy Loughran, Mickey Walker, Ted 'Kid' Lewis, Mike O'Dowd, Lew Tendler, etc., etc., who are all fighters who were descibed as having a more (or much more, in some cases) conventional or "proper" style in their time when compared to Greb, and who also to this day "look" more convential in style than does Greb in that short little video of him sparring?

I don't know about you, but based only on what I see, all those guys certainly look "modern" to me in style based on how they move around the ring on their feet (whether forward or backwards), how they move & react defensively to punches being thrown at them, or how they throw punches themselves, whether it be in combination or not...As far as offensive & defensive technique goes, I see nothing today that I didn't see back then.

What did you think of the Langford video, which is of a fighter just before Greb's time...anything "unmodern" in the way he looked (don't say hands low either, thus I remind you of Mr. Jones), besides the technology used to capture him on film?

Heck, you see Greb training for the Walker fight in that video, and speaking of Walker, he may look more (or much more) conventional or modern in style in his sparring video up on YouTube, but need I remind you that Greb (who was slipping at the time according to quite a few contemporary sources of the time) defeated Walker in their 15 round fight soon after that video of Greb was shot.

Or speaking of sparring videos...what's your thoughts on this one here, which shows Dempsey sparring Bill Tate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wxHY3p9DiQ

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty impressed with what Dempsey shows in that sparring video, with regards to the way he's moving around and such...Heck, even Bill Tate isn't unimpressive through these eyes, and I certainly wouldn't give much judgement to him based only on that video when we had a what appears to me to be a more "awkward" or "unconventional" guy like Vitali Klitschko being ranked as one of the better heavyweights over the last number of years. But anyways, I'm going to guess that you're quite a bit more impressed with that sparring video of Dempsey's than you were of Greb's, and considering the size advantage Jack had, he should be handle Greb pretty easily if they were to ever to share the same ring together in sparring, correct?

Yeah well, history says otherwise and it does so on multiple occasions.

It just seems that you want to critical of the guy's style based on a brief "look", while at the same time ignoring that that awkward "look" was one of the main attributes that he possesed in his time (along with the intangibles he possessed...heart, toughness, stamina, workrate, speed, movement etc.), and his excellant track record against fighters who are more (or much more) appealling to the eye based on having a more conventional or "modern" looking style on video...

If we were back in those days and you were judging Greb based only on a small "look" that you got, don't worry...I'd supply the case of eggs for you.

[phallus]

Another excellent piece of fistic literature from Mike Casey....unlike Philadelphia Jack, apparently , Mike never disappoints.



On a serious note, I am of the opinion that O'Brien was, most assuredly, the real deal. That's not to say there weren't some shady contests back in those days....there still are LOL!!! But; from all I've read...this piece included....Jack was a technician of the highest order, and could give any middleweight or light-heavyweight who's ever lived a fight due to his speed, skill, and unusually individualistic style..for lack of a better way of putting it.

Great read.

the same thing could be said today, there's still a lot corruption in boxing - emmanuel augustus - courntey burton, anyone.

to the other guys, a lot of our "superior athletes" today look pretty damn unimpressive and sloppy when we watch them on video. when i see the old guys, with real head movement and technique, jack johnson, for example, looks very impressive in film

[SABBATH]

If we were back in those days and you were judging Greb based only on a small "look" that you got, don't worry...I'd supply the case of eggs for you.

As soon as I supply the case of eggs for you when you are unable to quote me personally criticizing Greb or his fighting style anywhere on this thread.

I first asked the question "If a Boxingscene member posted a video like this of himself sparring and asked for our comments how badly would he be ripped?" This is a question meant to illicit a response from posters and encourage dialogue which is what I got.

I then wrote to you"You'd tell him to go back to flipping burgers or consider a career pumping gas." Since you have offered your opinion on the styles of contemporary fighters that is what I thought you would say if this clip was posted by a Boxingscene member of himself sparring.

Scrambled or fried?

[Yogi]

As soon as I supply the case of eggs for you when you are unable to quote me personally criticizing Greb or his fighting style anywhere on this thread.

Scrambled or fried?

Hey, I like eggs as much as anyone, so I'll look past your "flipping burgers" and "pumping gas" comments directly pertaining to that sparring video as long as I get me something to eat out of the deal.

Umm...Scrambled, please.

[SABBATH]

Hey, I like eggs as much as anyone, so I'll look past your "flipping burgers" and "pumping gas" comments directly pertaining to that sparring video as long as I get me something to eat out of the deal.

Umm...Scrambled, please.

Eggs go best with back bacon and beer so take off.

[Yogi]

LOL!

You know, I kinda needed that at this very moment, because it wasn't but maybe an hour ago when I learned that Doux Durelle had passed away, and I was more than a little shook up over the news.