Who had better handspeed: Mike Tyson or Joe Louis?

[metalinmybrain]

Really? Have you seen a different Floyd Patterson than everyone else?

If so I guess those 7 knockdowns against Liston were a figment of everyone's imagination huh?

Truth be told he was knocked down something like 19 times in his career.

If you're just referring to the Moore fight then you have to look at the style's of fighter. You can't judge a fighter based on who got knocked down by who.

Ever heard the saying, styles make fights? Marciano was a far easier target to hit than Floyd with his straight ahead, relentless style.

I love Floyd but you cannot compare his chin to Marciano's.

First what does Sonny Liston the guy that would have put Marciano in a hospital bed have to do with this? I said Patterson was never knocked down once by Archie Moore you hard headed......never mind. Secondly, how many times did Floyd get right back up, he should be considered by everyone one of the toughest fighters ever, he got into the ring with beasts and they were in their primes or at least had youth. Moore may have been old but in comparison Marciano fought an old Archie Moore as well so there is a strong comparison to who fought Moore better because it was a year later.

Patterson knocking Moore out is just a huge testament to how soft Marciano really was, I don't think Marciano would have been able to deal with Patterson's raw talent and speed. His power is just as great so I guess if Marciano could take one of his own punches he could take Patterson's. That is if he can take a bundle of them in one round. Patterson's defense alone would have broken down Marciano. Liston had a very very powerful jab and long one at that, something Marciano will never compare to, not even the most basic of jab punchers in boxing. Also Liston had tremendous power in both hands and could take a punch like any other tough guy.

Yes styles make for fights and that is why Patterson would crush Marciano, Rocky wouldn't even be able to catch Patterson with a clean shot and would get countered all night long until he hits the canvas. The fact of the matter is, the Patterson that got crushed by Liston would have still done a better job than the hospital beating Marciano would have taken had he stayed long enough to face Liston! Chin has nothing to do with it when you can lay down about 3 punches faster than you can try and punch back. Marciano would fold under the pressure of Patterson's flurries and great defense.

[Hawkins]

First what does Sonny Liston the guy that would have put Marciano in a hospital bed have to do with this? I said Patterson was never knocked down once by Archie Moore you hard headed......never mind. Secondly, how many times did Floyd get right back up, he should be considered by everyone one of the toughest fighters ever, he got into the ring with beasts and they were in their primes or at least had youth. Moore may have been old but in comparison Marciano fought an old Archie Moore as well so there is a strong comparison to who fought Moore better because it was a year later.

Patterson knocking Moore out is just a huge testament to how soft Marciano really was, I don't think Marciano would have been able to deal with Patterson's raw talent and speed. His power is just as great so I guess if Marciano could take one of his own punches he could take Patterson's. That is if he can take a bundle of them in one round. Patterson's defense alone would have broken down Marciano. Liston had a very very powerful jab and long one at that, something Marciano will never compare to, not even the most basic of jab punchers in boxing. Also Liston had tremendous power in both hands and could take a punch like any other tough guy.

Yes styles make for fights and that is why Patterson would crush Marciano, Rocky wouldn't even be able to catch Patterson with a clean shot and would get countered all night long until he hits the canvas. The fact of the matter is, the Patterson that got crushed by Liston would have still done a better job than the hospital beating Marciano would have taken had he stayed long enough to face Liston! Chin has nothing to do with it when you can lay down about 3 punches faster than you can try and punch back. Marciano would fold under the pressure of Patterson's flurries and great defense.

How can you say that tho? Marciano never lost. So there is no blueprint to say for sure how to beat Marciano. He faced a couple guys who were just as quick and as talented as Patterson and that is Ezzard Charles and Roland LaStarza. He faced guys that hit had as much power as Floyd too.

Ezz had deceptive power and hand speed. The Marciano fights ruined Ezz, but going into the fights he retained enough of his natural ability to be able to gauge how Rocky would do against other more technical fighters.

Regardless of who it was Rock always caught them in the end because he never ever quit coming at you.

Hawk

EDIT : As far as the Liston comparison I realized what you were talking about after I had replied - hence my ********* at the end.

[metalinmybrain]

How can you say that tho? Marciano never lost. So there is no blueprint to say for sure how to beat Marciano. He faced a couple guys who were just as quick and as talented as Patterson and that is Ezzard Charles and Roland LaStarza. He faced guys that hit had as much power as Floyd too.

Ezz had deceptive power and hand speed. The Marciano fights ruined Ezz, but going into the fights he retained enough of his natural ability to be able to gauge how Rocky would do against other more technical fighters.

Regardless of who it was Rock always caught them in the end because he never ever quit coming at you.

Hawk

EDIT : As far as the Liston comparison I realized what you were talking about after I had replied - hence my ********* at the end.

Ezzard Charles wasn't nearly as great of a heavyweight as Patterson. He lost 25 time in his whole career far more than Patterson who isn't that far behind in fights. Besides the point Charles was in a heap of wars before facing Marciano. His career literally ended after fighting Marciano and is prove of the prime he had long ago passed. Charles was out of it in both fights with Marciano he just wasn't the fighter he use to be and not so great as every one thinks he was. For the times Marciano was floored it was because of age that his opponents did not finish him off (Archie Moore).

Roland LaStarza are you kidding me? The same guy who got smashed by the hands of a stiff named Julio Mederos. Roland was never a great heavyweight, he was put up against more stiffs than Jenna Jamison could ride! Roland shouldn't even be mentioned as a suitable contender for the heavyweights, he wasn't a real test for Marciano but did manage to take him the distance once. The only credit Marciano has for defeating Roland is giving Roland his first lose, other than that it only proves that Marciano was at least better than the bums Roland was facing up until that point.

If you ask me it sure did take Marciano a long time to finish off even the most mediocre of opponents. His power wasn't that great and his skill was even worse but his toughness prevailed over lusterless talent!

[Hawkins]

Ezzard Charles wasn't nearly as great of a heavyweight as Patterson. He lost 25 time in his whole career far more than Patterson who isn't that far behind in fights. Besides the point Charles was in a heap of wars before facing Marciano. His career literally ended after fighting Marciano and is prove of the prime he had long ago passed. Charles was out of it in both fights with Marciano he just wasn't the fighter he use to be and not so great as every one thinks he was. For the times Marciano was floored it was because of age that his opponents did not finish him off (Archie Moore).

Roland LaStarza are you kidding me? The same guy who got smashed by the hands of a stiff named Julio Mederos. Roland was never a great heavyweight, he was put up against more stiffs than Jenna Jamison could ride! Roland shouldn't even be mentioned as a suitable contender for the heavyweights, he wasn't a real test for Marciano but did manage to take him the distance once. The only credit Marciano has for defeating Roland is giving Roland his first lose, other than that it only proves that Marciano was at least better than the bums Roland was facing up until that point.

If you ask me it sure did take Marciano a long time to finish off even the most mediocre of opponents. His power wasn't that great and his skill was even worse but his toughness prevailed over lusterless talent!

You are aware that 16 of Ezzard Charles' losses came AFTER the second Marciano fight right? Most experts agreed that Ezz was completely used up and ruined after that fight. But before it, Ezzard Charles still had gas in the tank and was still a supremely skilled heavyweight. He had superior technical ability and hand speed almost on the level of Patterson - the only area where he was behind is in power. That being said Ezz still had very deceptive power.

So to dismiss him is totally unfair - Ezzard was very sharp in both Marciano fights and was ahead in the second, with a bad cut to Rocky, before he was stopped.

I so totally disagree that Ezzard Charles wasn't as good of a heavyweight as Floyd. I think he was as good, if not better, plus he had alot better chin than Floyd. The only thing is Ezzard started at heavyweight alot later than Floyd, but overall he was just as good.

As for LaStarva, he was most certainly a good heavyweight of the time. A great technical boxer with an iron chin and decent pop to his punches. The loss you refer to is after the Marciano rematch ; which ruined him. He said it himself.

LaStarza's arms were broken in the rematch with Rocky. Broken by the multitude of punches he was hit with. The match you refer to - the Julio Mederos fight was two and half years after the second Marciano fight. Again, including the Marciano fight 6 of his 9 career losses came afterwards.

But make no mistake, LaStarva was no bum - far from it. Rocky proved in these two fights at least that he could catch up with, and deal with slick boxer/counter punchers and win the fight.

[hhascup]

Ezzard Charles wasn't nearly as great of a heavyweight as Patterson. He lost 25 time in his whole career far more than Patterson who isn't that far behind in fights. Besides the point Charles was in a heap of wars before facing Marciano. His career literally ended after fighting Marciano and is prove of the prime he had long ago passed. Charles was out of it in both fights with Marciano he just wasn't the fighter he use to be and not so great as every one thinks he was. For the times Marciano was floored it was because of age that his opponents did not finish him off (Archie Moore).

Roland LaStarza are you kidding me? The same guy who got smashed by the hands of a stiff named Julio Mederos. Roland was never a great heavyweight, he was put up against more stiffs than Jenna Jamison could ride! Roland shouldn't even be mentioned as a suitable contender for the heavyweights, he wasn't a real test for Marciano but did manage to take him the distance once. The only credit Marciano has for defeating Roland is giving Roland his first lose, other than that it only proves that Marciano was at least better than the bums Roland was facing up until that point.

If you ask me it sure did take Marciano a long time to finish off even the most mediocre of opponents. His power wasn't that great and his skill was even worse but his toughness prevailed over lusterless talent!

In his prime, Ezzard Charles was a better over-all boxer then Patterson was, BUT when Rocky fought Charles, he was on the way down. Also, Charles fought most of his career at a lower weight. As far as LaStarza goes, he also was an Outstanding boxer, with an Outstanding record going into the 1st bout with Rocky, BUT he was never a Great boxer.

If I had to rate them at the time they fought Rocky and the time Patterson fought Moore, I would have to say that Patterson would have the edge.

If Rocky stayed around to box Patterson, I can see Patterson winning the opening rounds because of his speed of hand, BUT I can also see Rocky catching up to him in the later rounds and winning by a KO.

[hhascup]

You are aware that 16 of Ezzard Charles' losses came AFTER the second Marciano fight right? Most experts agreed that Ezz was completely used up and ruined after that fight. But before it, Ezzard Charles still had gas in the tank and was still a supremely skilled heavyweight. He had superior technical ability and hand speed almost on the level of Patterson - the only area where he was behind is in power. That being said Ezz still had very deceptive power.

So to dismiss him is totally unfair - Ezzard was very sharp in both Marciano fights and was ahead in the second, with a bad cut to Rocky, before he was stopped.

I so totally disagree that Ezzard Charles wasn't as good of a heavyweight as Floyd. I think he was as good, if not better, plus he had alot better chin than Floyd. The only thing is Ezzard started at heavyweight alot later than Floyd, but overall he was just as good.

As for LaStarva, he was most certainly a good heavyweight of the time. A great technical boxer with an iron chin and decent pop to his punches. The loss you refer to is after the Marciano rematch ; which ruined him. He said it himself.

LaStarza's arms were broken in the rematch with Rocky. Broken by the multitude of punches he was hit with. The match you refer to - the Julio Mederos fight was two and half years after the second Marciano fight. Again, including the Marciano fight 6 of his 9 career losses came afterwards.

But make no mistake, LaStarva was no bum - far from it. Rocky proved in these two fights at least that he could catch up with, and deal with slick boxer/counter punchers and win the fight.

An Interview with Roland LaStarza about Rocky:



Former Golden Gloves champ and heavyweight contender Roland LaStarza was unable to join us today. However, he shared these stories about his career and wished everyone in attendance well.


On fighting Rocky Marciano: "I won the first fight. Everyone thought I won the first fight except the referee. One judge scored it for me, the ref and the other judge gave it to Marciano. All the newspaper guys gave me the decision.


"The second fight, ruined me. It was easy at first. Then in maybe the sixth round I blocked a punch with my left arm and my left was gone. I blocked one of his right hands and that was it. I hurt that arm in training and when I blocked that punch I damaged blood vessels in my arm. I stood there and took a beating until the 11th.


"If I had one word to describe Rocky it would be relentless. I would throw a right hand, he would throw a right hand. But the difference was Rocky would throw 10. He didn't hit me the hardest, but he hit me the most often. Don't get me wrong, Rocky was a great fighter. He was tough and he never stopped throwing punches."

[metalinmybrain]

Wait wait wait a minute.............

In his prime, Ezzard Charles was a better over-all boxer then Patterson was, BUT when Rocky fought Charles, he was on the way down. Also, Charles fought most of his career at a lower weight. As far as LaStarza goes, he also was an Outstanding boxer, with an Outstanding record going into the 1st bout with Rocky, BUT he was never a Great boxer.

If I had to rate them at the time they fought Rocky and the time Patterson fought Moore, I would have to say that Patterson would have the edge.

If Rocky stayed around to box Patterson, I can see Patterson winning the opening rounds because of his speed of hand, BUT I can also see Rocky catching up to him in the later rounds and winning by a KO.

Sorry but I can't get over the thought that Sonny Liston would have crushed Marciano but left Patterson battered. All in all, Patterson only had a weak chin because he wasn't a natural heavyweight everyone knows that. Marciano was! Still, if Marciano can be taken down with one punch for a knockdown by a very aging Archie Moore than hell knows what could have happened had he faced the same caliber of fighter in Archie Moore at heavyweight with the appropriate age. If anything Charles was great against boxers, he didn't do so well against brawlers who constantly came at you, Archie Moore on the other hand did, that guy was a real class warrior in the ring. The minute he hit heavyweight he was fighting everyone and didn't duck anyone. Charles may have had the upper hand on Moore at light heavyweight but at heavyweight Moore was better, it was his age that prevented him from becoming a world champ at that weight but his style of boxing was allot better than Charles and he could take a bigger beating. Archie Moore kept fighting long after fighting Marciano and til the day he died said he was hit harder than Marciano in more than a few occasions. Fact is all of Marciano's formidable opponents just ran into him at the wrong time and wrong era. They all ruled at one point years before anyone even knew about Rocky Marciano. What really made Marciano think about the fact of a possible fight with Patterson had he stuck around. You know, Cus D'Amato wanted the match and was literally dying for it to have happened. Patterson destroying Moore faster than Marciano did was a huge testament for Cus D'Amato he said Patterson had the style to beat Marciano just received the chance to prove it.

I think Patterson would have beaten Charles into a pulp!

[metalinmybrain]

OK what just happened here?

How in the hell did this thread of who has the fastest hands out of Mike Tyson and Joe Louis turn into a debate on how good Marciano really was and the opposition he faced?

I for one would just like to say that we really need to jump back onto subject and however this turned lets just leave it behind. What is said is said now back to the matter at hand, who has the faster hands between Joe Louis and Mike Tyson, of course Mike Tyson.

Anyone who wants to argue that bring it on.................... lol

[Hawkins]

How in the hell did this thread of who has the fastest hands out of Mike Tyson and Joe Louis turn into a debate on how good Marciano really was and the opposition he faced?

I for one would just like to say that we really need to jump back onto subject and however this turned lets just leave it behind. What is said is said now back to the matter at hand, who has the faster hands between Joe Louis and Mike Tyson, of course Mike Tyson.

Anyone who wants to argue that bring it on.................... lol

LOL I don't know..some of these threads take on a life all their own.

[hemichromis]

How in the hell did this thread of who has the fastest hands out of Mike Tyson and Joe Louis turn into a debate on how good Marciano really was and the opposition he faced?

I for one would just like to say that we really need to jump back onto subject and however this turned lets just leave it behind. What is said is said now back to the matter at hand, who has the faster hands between Joe Louis and Mike Tyson, of course Mike Tyson.

Anyone who wants to argue that bring it on.................... lol

hy i thoughtvit was you!