During the Vietnam War

[Abe Attell]

Very Good, Butterfly, and that's exactly what happened and Ali was by far from the only one who got reclassication to the 1-A status after previous being 1-Y...I see that there are 2,000,000 others that fit under that category according to the NY Times on Dec 24th, 1965 (I imagine some of those recieved an exemption due to having dependants*, like Frazier who also got reclassified from 1-Y to 1-A). Exactly one week later the Times mention that the Selective Services, due to "manpower needs", were planning to restore the Korean Draft Rule, which made college students eligible for the draft and apparently that's exactly what they did...


"To protest U.S. policy in Viet Nam, 16 draft-deferred University of Michigan students took part in a sit-in at the Ann Arbor draft board in 1965. Reaction came swiftly. With the blessing of U.S. Draft Diector Lewis B. Hershey, all 16 students were reclassified 1-A."

-TIME Magazine Feb 10th, 1967


*Out of those 2,000,000 that were reclassified and didn't get a draft exemption (or weren't drafted for a different reason)...I wonder how many of them didn't come back alive?

Did you ever think that if somebody couldn't pass the test to get in, that says something about our School System?
I bet the Rich kids could of all passed, but how many of them are going to see battle?

You see, this is how it works:
The poor to middle-class kids will be fed a **** education, and lets not forget, **** for health-care...then a War starts, and guess who is going? That's right, the non-Rich kids...when they come back from War, they have no health-care, and no jobs...Oh well, **** them anyway.

Do you know why they got rid of the Draft?

There was a program about this on the History Channel a while back how they found that it didn't matter about the number of soldiers you had, as much as it was the number of "Willing" soldiers to fight...there was some crazy statistic that said 7 out of 10 people (or around that number) in WWII, didn't shoot their weapons because of Fear or just their unwilling to kill another human being. Not everybody can fight, and fight to kill.

So again, what are the chances of Ali being drafted?
Is there the possibility of him being drafted? of course, but still would like to know what the chances are in a population the size of America...It's not like this was WWII when basically everybody had to go. Joe Louis signed up, those were the days.


You also have to remember, that is our "Right", our "Duty" to stand up for what we think is right...If Ali felt that way, then he was right in what he did...The "Government", works for us, not the other way around.

Ali also had some good points on why he shouldn't go.


It is Un-American not to stand up for what you believe in


It is easy to be led, it is hard to Lead.


I think the big question would be, would he have had the same opinon if it was World War II?
maybe, since one of his points was that the African American wasn't being treated right/equal...However, an attack on the United States was possible, so if you are being directly attacked, wouldn't you/he fight?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


All that said, if there is a "Need/Must" for War, then you should fight, unless you are say a "True follower of Christ" then your ass is going to die because Jesus didn't fight back. "Turn the other Cheek", I am just not sure that works for me

[Yogi]

So again, what are the chances of Ali being drafted?
Is there the possibility of him being drafted? of course, but still would like to know what the chances are in a population the size of America...

According to the Department of Defense data they kept in regards to the Vietnam War, there were 26 million Americans who were eligible for the draft based only on their age (18 to 26), and I don't know the exact number, but the report states that a "vast majority" of those eligible due to age were exempt due to reasons such as; physically and/or mentally incapable (according to the standards of the draft policy...those were classified as 4-F), having dependants, had college deferments when those were given out, their professions (teachers and such), or whatever else. So out of those 26 million we can figure that the actual eligible number, according to the draft standards outlined at the time, must be well below half of that 26 million if the "vast majority" of those in that age bracket did not serve...Now 2,100,000 did in fact serve during that war (of which 360 of them being professional athletes...Roger Staubach, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, etc., etc.), according to the DoD data, and apx 66% of those who did serve were drafted into the military. Intersting to note that 63.7% of all Amercian casualities in Vietnam were those who had volunteered for military service...

Do the math and I'd say the chances of Ali getting drafted under the draft standards of the time were pretty damn good, as it was for a huge number of other Americans.

As far as the rest of your post goes, let me first say that I am not, nor have I ever been against Ali's decision not to join the army. I have been, am, and always will be (hopefully) an anti-war type of person, so it would be completely hypocritcal of me to have a position tht stands against Ali's own decision. I applaud him for what he did (or didn't do), as I do admire him for it...But I REALLY have a hard time feeling sorry for him when a confirmed 58,000 young men & woman were losing there lives over there, with one quarter of those who died not even out of their teenage years (apx 50% of those killed were under 21). Yes, there's no question that those who fought in the Vietnam War are generally the younger ones who come from a poor or middle class background, but that is the same for every war that has been fought. The rich generally do have more options in getting out of the draft, whether they be financially (e.g. could afford college) or through simple connections...It wasn't exactly a fair system, to be sure, and that's why they went to a draft lottery in the very late months of 1969 (which was then based on your date of birth), as a way of making things a little bit more fair.

Would Ali have volunteered his services in WW II?

That's tough to say, but if you believe he would have then you must also believe that Ali then becomes ineligible for the "conscientious objector" exemption (someone who's against war, period, not just a single particular war), which, because of his religion, is what Ali was basing a large portion of his defense on.

And yes, if going by the statistics, it does appear that the African Americans were treated unfairly in the early portions of the war, as at one time 20% of all casualities were African American males and that was over the first couple of years...That percentage nearly doubled the ratio in regards to how African Amercian males made up both 11% of the U.S. male population, as well as 11% of those fighting in Vietnam. That 20% lowered quite significantly once there was public outcry over it, and Johnson gave orders to reduce the amount of combat they saw, as the final total of casualities shows that 12.5% of them were African Amercian males (7,262 of 58,152), which is only slightly above the population & military participation percentages.

[Mr. Ryan]

r u going to be another butterfly. i see u found new interest in ali. maybe i will also. cause the movie wasnt enough

I just finished reading a couple Ali books and I have a bunch of new info and questions to unload in the forums. It was Muhammad Ali who got me interested in boxing in the first place.

[QueensburyRules]

Bottom Line:

Ali was popular...he was "The Champion"...they wanted to use him to promote the war, like Joe Louis did for WWII.

I wonder what the chances of the "Heavyweight Champion of the World" being picked in a lottery.


And why continue to go after him after he failed the test to get in more than once?

Why come to him and say you don't have to fight, just boost moral?

- -Heh, heh, a better Mutt and Jeff BIG DRAMA scenario could have never been imagined.

The irony of the Army ultimately making Ali the beloved icon he became has been lost in the brouhaha.