Appreciating Muhammad Ali

[gangland_kingpi]

Telling the truth? His posts are so biased against Ali it's funny at times. He said that Klitchko would murder Ali. He also said that Liston threw the first fight against clay, and that Bonavena was easily beating Ali up until the stoppage, when the actual scorecards show Ali in a comfortable lead up until the stoppage.

LondonRingRules is an Ali hater, plain and simple.

Whoever said this hasn't seen the fight or is thinking about the second Liston fight.

[BKM-]

Threw the fight? Well he quit didn't he?

[gangland_kingpi]

Threw the fight? Well he quit didn't he?

Exactly, Liston was reputedly hit with a phantom punch in the second fight and was accused of throwing the match. However, I seen a program which used computer technology to determine whether or not Ali landed and he did so....

[BKM-]

Exactly, Liston was reputedly hit with a phantom punch in the second fight and was accused of throwing the match. However, I seen a program which used computer technology to determine whether or not Ali landed and he did so....

Yes, i have seen the same program. They did do it with a computer and yes, he did hit Liston with a punch. The only question was ''did it have enough effect on Liston?'' was it hard enough to knock him out..

[gangland_kingpi]

Yes, i have seen the same program. They did do it with a computer and yes, he did hit Liston with a punch. The only question was ''did it have enough effect on Liston?'' was it hard enough to knock him out..

Yes it's true, that is the big question and what pisses me off about the whole thing is that people try to use it to detract from Alis reputation, if anything it's Liston who's at fault and that's if it wasn't a powerful enough punch. I've seen plenty of punches that didn't look like much but have layed people out.

[butterfly1964]

Threw the fight? Well he quit didn't he?

No, I mean that he actually let Clay out run him and out gun him for six rounds.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

u guys do make it seem like he's perfect. i saw many flaws in ali

Yea true...

And anyone that says Ali was the perfect fighter is ignorant...In fact I'd say his negatives out weigh his positives...

Ali had really bad defense - lets face it because even Dundee said it, Ali didn't know how to parry, didn't know how to block, he hardly knew anything about defense. In fact the only defense you saw out of him was later on with the Rope - a - dope and even then he wasn't doing anything to special he was only covering up. In three fights with Frazier Ali never figured out a basic block for Frazier's Hook...Ali got away with being fast enough to dance around opponents and keep them at bay with stiff jabs.

Ali didn't have a strong punch - Lets Face it his punch didn't have that much sting to it. His best punch is also what is normally the weakest punch in a boxers arsenal (Jab), and he could sit there punching you for rounds and rounds and you wouldn't necessarily get knocked down. He gets a reputation for having a good punch only because he KO'd Foreman, but if people actually watched the fight they'd see that Foreman was tired as hell. He got by because instead of throwing hard punches, he'd overwhelm you with punch after punch after punch making you look silly and trying TKO you but even if he didn't he could still get the decision.

Ali couldn't in-fight at all - Lets face it Ali completely dominated the outside better then basically any fighter. That was his sweet spot and when he had you there, he wouldn't necessarily be able to KO you but he'd definitely be able to keep you there and make you look ******. He did it several times to people. But if you got inside on him like was possible (Frazier) he was helpless. He could try and jab his way out or cover up but if he couldn't (Frazier) he was screwed. He'd get hit with punches, alot (though it varies for fighter)...He only got by because of his speed, his body, and especially his chin.

Ali didn't walk into the ring with everything - From what I have read of Ali (though limited) he rarely walked into the ring 100% trained. When he trained he had a good work ethic, but he didn't always work to his potential and for this he could be shocked. When your fighting with some of the best contenders of all time it pays to have your self at peak.

Though on the other hand Ali carried positives into the ring-


Ali was fast. - There's no ifs about this. Ali was fast, his footwork was crazy, his hand speed was some of the best of any fighter regardless of weight class. He was able to overwhelm you with punches, that wouldn't KO you but they'd keep you at bay. If you tried to get in he'd throw a few fast stiff jabs and just dance to your side or back, and throw a few more. Repeat many times per round for a whole fight and he'd get the decision.

Ali's Chin/Body was granite to say the least - He took bombs from George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, Joe Frazier etc...He'd do this for rounds at a time. He'd get knocked down but he'd get up and be able to keep fighting not many fighters can say this. Most fighters can't even say they went 4 rounds with Prime Foreman.

Ali had you beat before the Bell for Round 1 Rang - Unless you were locked up in a cabin under a rock on a mountain somewhere you were watching Ali in the 60's/70's, and this includes his opponents. He was poetic with his insults to say the least. He acted almost crazy, and by portraying himself like this you almost thought that he wouldn't prepare himself (which at times he didn't) and you thought because he was ****y he'd slip up alot. But then you watched, when Ali stepped through the ropes he went from crazy ****y guy to a fighter, and I don't think most fighters were ready for that. He scared you in a way or got you frustrated yourself so you'd make ****** mistakes. He called Liston the Bear, Foreman the Mummy, Frazier the Gorilla. And he even Called Joe Frazier right after one of his fights (Quarry?).

Like I said Ali's Negatives outweigh his positives but his positives were almost like the counter to his negatives. For each thing wrong with him one of his positives were able to compensate.

I still believe prime Frazier and Foreman would beat prime Ali however..





All off the top of my head

[butterfly1964]

Yea true...

And anyone that says Ali was the perfect fighter is ignorant...In fact I'd say his negatives out weigh his positives...

Ali had really bad defense - lets face it because even Dundee said it, Ali didn't know how to parry, didn't know how to block, he hardly knew anything about defense. In fact the only defense you saw out of him was later on with the Rope - a - dope and even then he wasn't doing anything to special he was only covering up. In three fights with Frazier Ali never figured out a basic block for Frazier's Hook...Ali got away with being fast enough to dance around opponents and keep them at bay with stiff jabs.

Ali didn't have a strong punch - Lets Face it his punch didn't have that much sting to it. His best punch is also what is normally the weakest punch in a boxers arsenal (Jab), and he could sit there punching you for rounds and rounds and you wouldn't necessarily get knocked down. He gets a reputation for having a good punch only because he KO'd Foreman, but if people actually watched the fight they'd see that Foreman was tired as hell. He got by because instead of throwing hard punches, he'd overwhelm you with punch after punch after punch making you look silly and trying TKO you but even if he didn't he could still get the decision.

Ali couldn't in-fight at all - Lets face it Ali completely dominated the outside better then basically any fighter. That was his sweet spot and when he had you there, he wouldn't necessarily be able to KO you but he'd definitely be able to keep you there and make you look ******. He did it several times to people. But if you got inside on him like was possible (Frazier) he was helpless. He could try and jab his way out or cover up but if he couldn't (Frazier) he was screwed. He'd get hit with punches, alot (though it varies for fighter)...He only got by because of his speed, his body, and especially his chin.

Ali didn't walk into the ring with everything - From what I have read of Ali (though limited) he rarely walked into the ring 100% trained. When he trained he had a good work ethic, but he didn't always work to his potential and for this he could be shocked. When your fighting with some of the best contenders of all time it pays to have your self at peak.

Though on the other hand Ali carried positives into the ring-


Ali was fast. - There's no ifs about this. Ali was fast, his footwork was crazy, his hand speed was some of the best of any fighter regardless of weight class. He was able to overwhelm you with punches, that wouldn't KO you but they'd keep you at bay. If you tried to get in he'd throw a few fast stiff jabs and just dance to your side or back, and throw a few more. Repeat many times per round for a whole fight and he'd get the decision.

Ali's Chin/Body was granite to say the least - He took bombs from George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, Joe Frazier etc...He'd do this for rounds at a time. He'd get knocked down but he'd get up and be able to keep fighting not many fighters can say this. Most fighters can't even say they went 4 rounds with Prime Foreman.

Ali had you beat before the Bell for Round 1 Rang - Unless you were locked up in a cabin under a rock on a mountain somewhere you were watching Ali in the 60's/70's, and this includes his opponents. He was poetic with his insults to say the least. He acted almost crazy, and by portraying himself like this you almost thought that he wouldn't prepare himself (which at times he didn't) and you thought because he was ****y he'd slip up alot. But then you watched, when Ali stepped through the ropes he went from crazy ****y guy to a fighter, and I don't think most fighters were ready for that. He scared you in a way or got you frustrated yourself so you'd make ****** mistakes. He called Liston the Bear, Foreman the Mummy, Frazier the Gorilla. And he even Called Joe Frazier right after one of his fights (Quarry?).

Like I said Ali's Negatives outweigh his positives but his positives were almost like the counter to his negatives. For each thing wrong with him one of his positives were able to compensate.

I still believe prime Frazier and Foreman would beat prime Ali however..





All off the top of my head

Ali had a better defense than most thought. He blocked punches with his gloves on occasion, and also in the Quarry fight, he blocked the left hook well.

Ali had above average punching power. His best punch was the right hand, and he knocked many people out with that right hand. He not known for having a good punch "only because he ko'd Foreman". His power was at his best before the layoff, when his hands weren't constantly in pain and had to get shots of novacaine to relieve the pain.

Also Ali was a training freak. I don't know what sources you get your information from, but Ali loved the gym, it was his own personal theater. In his prime he always was in top condition, and he had great stamina. And even after his prime, he rarely got tired in a fight, and usually outlasted his opponents quite well.

So his so called "negatives" do not out weigh jack ****.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Ali had a better defense than most thought. He blocked punches with his gloves on occasion, and also in the Quarry fight, he blocked the left hook well.

Ali had above average punching power. His best punch was the right hand, and he knocked many people out with that right hand. He not known for having a good punch "only because he ko'd Foreman". His power was at his best before the layoff, when his hands weren't constantly in pain and had to get shots of novacaine to relieve the pain.

Also Ali was a training freak. I don't know what sources you get your information from, but Ali loved the gym, it was his own personal theater. In his prime he always was in top condition, and he had great stamina. And even after his prime, he rarely got tired in a fight, and usually outlasted his opponents quite well.

So his so called "negatives" do not out weigh jack ****.

I disagree

How are you going to say Ali had a better defense than most think, not that I can speak for what everyone thinks but Dundee said himself that Ali's defense wasn't good. He said Ali's speed was so key that they developed that and didn't develop his defense. His biggest defense was moving his body back and the Rope-A-Dope.

I don't think Ali had normal punching power, and IMO his best punch was his jab but your entitled to your opinion as well. Looking at his record the only real big name he beat by KO (other then Foreman) was Zora Folley.

Also I never down played Ali not having good stamina, though wasn't Ali the one who used to go around with women before fights (no I'm not thinking of Tyson)......I never said Ali wasn't a good fighter but he entered the ring without being at full potential (example Ken Norton)..

so yea I stick with what I said orginally

[Franko]

I disagree

How are you going to say Ali had a better defense than most think, not that I can speak for what everyone thinks but Dundee said himself that Ali's defense wasn't good. He said Ali's speed was so key that they developed that and didn't develop his defense. His biggest defense was moving his body back and the Rope-A-Dope.

I don't think Ali had normal punching power, and IMO his best punch was his jab but your entitled to your opinion as well. Looking at his record the only real big name he beat by KO (other then Foreman) was Zora Folley.

Also I never down played Ali not having good stamina, though wasn't Ali the one who used to go around with women before fights (no I'm not thinking of Tyson)......I never said Ali wasn't a good fighter but he entered the ring without being at full potential (example Ken Norton)..

so yea I stick with what I said orginally

Muhammad Ali isn't known for being a hard puncher, that's a fact, and there were times that he entered the ring without being at full potential. Can you imagine a hard hitting Muhammad Ali at full potential??? Frightening!
It's also true that Ali's defence wasn't exceptional, but prior to his exile, Ali fought on plenty of occasions with his gloves by his side, and his reflexes were his defence. He was floored twice during this time i think, and didn't lose. After the exile his defence got a lot better because it needed to as Ali's style changed. Again, i think he was floored twice (if you count the knock down against Chuck Wepner?) but the difference is that the change of style meant that he was taking more punches.
Despite the positives and negatives Muhammad Ali was still 'the greatest!'