In your latest serving of the Daily Bread Mailbag, the one and only Stephen "Breadman" Edwards delves into history to name the best 'slow' fighter, reveal which two fights would need to be different for Thomas Hearns to be the greatest of them all, and examine where Dmitry Bivol and Artur Beterbiev belong among the greatest of all light heavyweights.

Hi Breadman,

Thanks for the many great Saturdays you gave me over the years. I have a question for you. I was rewatching Oleg Maskaev vs Hasim Rahman fight recently, and it almost pained me how slow Maskaev was. Yet, we all remember how the fight ended. So, my two slightly different questions… Who do you think was the most successful slow fighter in history? And who was the slowest fighter who still managed to fight at a world level? And what are the factors that can make you a good boxer if you are slow?

Best regards Dmitry 

Bread’s Response: This is a great question. I have seen fights where fast fighters have looked slow. I have also seen fighters be labeled slow but they aren’t really slow, they are deliberate…

That being said, in my many years of studying fighters, four fighters come to mind. Joe Louis, who has very fast hands but deliberate feet, is often labeled slow by current media. Alexis Arguello is often labeled slow by modern historians in head-to-head matchups. Mike McCallum on video comes off as slow sometimes. Ezzard Charles on video comes off as slow. I believe Louis has superior handspeed to the other three. 

So flip a three-sided coin, and pick one Arguello, McCallum or Charles.

When we speak of all-time great fighters, do you truly believe Sugar Ray Robinson was the GOAT, and how far were SRL, Hagler and Roy Jones, Mayweather and Hearns away from him as far as career and talent and was Ali the goat of HW?

Bread’s Response: Yes, I believe Robinson was the GOAT and Ali was the GOAT of heavyweights. Sugar Ray Leonard was a retirement away from being the GOAT. He retired in 1982 after he stopped Bruce Finch. He was 25 and his record was 32-1 with 24 KOs. From 1982-1987 there were many welterweights and junior middleweights who emerged. At welterweight Marlon Starling, Donald Curry, Lloyd Honeyghan, Mark Breland and Milton McCrory. At junior middleweight Mike McCallum, Julian Jackson, John Mugabi and Tony Ayala emerged. You also had Aaron Pryor at junior welterweight. 

Leonard doesn’t have to fight all of them before he moves to middleweight and fights Hagler. But if he beats just half of them, imagine his resume which already includes Benitez, Duran and Hearns. 

If Marvin Hagler beats Leonard and turns back one of the elite middleweights who emerged after he retired he's in the conversation. Many don’t realize that after Hagler lost to Leonard a great middleweight era came about with Sumbu Kalambay, Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, Michael Nunn, Frank Tate, Gerald McClellan, Roy Jones, James Toney etc, etc. If Hagler turns back one of these young studs circa 1987-89, his case for the GOAT skyrockets. 

Hagler’s case also is stronger if he could’ve got a title shot earlier. Hagler didn’t get his first title shot until 1979 when he had 50 fights already. But if he gets that shot in 1977 before Carlos Monzon retires and happens to beat Monzon, oh what a case the Marvelous one would have had.

If Roy Jones simply gets Evander Holyfield or Mike Tyson in the ring after he beats John Ruiz, beats both or either and retires, I think Jones moving back down to light heavyweight to fight Antonio Tarver is the biggest miscalculation in boxing history. 

But fate is very powerful. Jones beat Tarver in the first fight, but he couldn’t walk away from Tarver and he gave him a rematch. The rest is history.

If Floyd Mayweather beats one or both of the undefeated title holders in Joel Casamayor and Acelino Freitas at 130lbs. Then at 140lbs, if he beats Kostya Tszyu. Then goes to 147lbs and deals with Paul Williams or Antonio Margarito in 2006-07. No retirement in 2007. Deals with the emerging Pacquiao in circa 2009-10, his case for the GOAT is on a rock-solid foundation.

If Tommy Hearns beats Ray Leonard and Marvin Hagler he’s probably the GOAT. Hearns lost to the best welterweight since Ray Robinson. And arguably the best middleweight since Ray Robinson. With Hearns' head-to-head match up appearance, lofty KO percentage, five division titles, and freakish optics, Hearns would have a strong case for the GOAT if he wins those fights. 

In retrospect, Hearns would have been the Fighter of the Decade of the 80s. He would’ve been the best welterweight, the best junior middleweight and possibly the best middleweight of the same decade. The 80s is the best decade of boxing of my lifetime.

Hey Breadman

What are some of your favorite boxing tricks and which are your favorite boxers who use certain tricks? What I mean to say, is high level stuff that a lot of boxers don’t do, or things that are hard to figure out or hard to counter. An obvious one for example, would be Ali vs Foreman doing the rope-a-dope. I’ll give you a more recent one, Benavidez vs Morrell. In the early rounds, Benavidez had Morrell up against the ropes and Morrell had his hands up high in a blocking position. Benavidez used what’s called, an Axe-4 and Axe-3, where he pushed Morrell’s glove down with one of his hands, and hooks with the opposite hand. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Lomachenko do this as well. I always loved Hopkins’ lead right where he would fall in after throwing it to smother a counter attack from his opponent. Navarrete used a veteran move vs Liam Walsh when he was knocked down and hurt real bad. He spit out his mouthguard on purpose, or at least I believed it was on purpose, and pointed it out to the ref. He bought himself more time to recover. Another veteran trick that I’ve seen used to recover, but I can’t name a specific example, is when a boxer is hurt, after a referee calls for a break, the hurt boxer purposely moves to reposition himself to use the referee as a shield, preventing an immediate attack from his opponent. I know some boxers who might have a wrestling background might be good in a clinch, using leverage to their advantage or turning an opponent in a clinch, moving in a certain way to give themselves an advantage. One thing I see used from time to time is a boxer defensively backing off by switching stances temporarily used to give themselves more room to work vs an aggressive opponent. One I could even say was a high-level trick was your instruction to Plant when he was up against McCumby. I remember you explained it in a previous mailbag, McCumby was strong and was having success. He was catching Plant mid-range when Plant wasn’t moving forward and when McCumby was boxing on his terms, but you recognized that McCumby didn’t like it when Plant moved in on him. So to counter what McCumby was doing, you instructed Plant to pressure McCumby on the inside. Plant ended up getting a stoppage win in the ninth. Less of a trick, and more of a mid-bout adjustment yet still high level stuff. I remember a bout, and I forget which bout, but it was one of Hopkins bouts when he was at light heavyweight, later on in his career. Naazim Richardson in the corner between one of the rounds said, “Joe Louis.”  Now I don’t know if that was something that they worked on in the gym to try to emulate a Joe Louis style, I don’t remember noticing anything different in the round, but I thought it was interesting that he called for “Joe Louis” in between rounds. There was a bout years ago on Showtime, it was a middleweight bout, Avtandil Khurtsidze vs Antoine Douglas. In the 10th and final round, Khurtsidze’s corner instructed him to go “Mike Tyson.” Khurtsidze came out in a peekaboo style and ended up stopping Douglas. How hard is it to train for certain particular styles or to emulate a certain style like a “Mike Tyson” and correctly use it in a situation mid bout? Is that something that you’ve ever done with one of your boxers or would you ever train for it? Thanks.

Bread’s Response: What Caleb did to McCumby wasn’t really a trick, it was more of tactical adjustment. I love the move that Benavidez did to Morrell but the first person I’ve seen do that move was Fernando Vargas many years ago. 

I like the way Floyd Mayweather brings his head closer to his opponents. The opponent throws a jab, then Mayweather does his pull counter right hand.

I like the rubber neck move, where a fighter turns his head in a “no” motion. Duran, Canelo and Carbajal do it as well as anyone I’ve seen.

Joe Calzaghe had a defensive trick where he would close his forearms together to defend against uppercuts. 

And Ray Leonard and Roy Jones were the first fighters I have seen that used a tap hook to the head, then a hook to the body combination. That particular combination usually comes in the reverse order, but Leonard, then later Jones would tap upstairs first, to bring the right hand up, then shoot the hook to the liver. Now everyone does it, but in the 80s no one was doing it.

Hello, Greetings from Melbourne, Australia. The fights being held in Saudi Arabia have ignited an interest in boxing for me which led me to this website. I was very impressed with your response to a previous question where you spoke about Richard Steele. Your knowledge, attention to detail and analysis of the facts was superb. I would love to hear your answers to the following questions -(a) You have to choose one fighter from all time to fight for your life while at the peak of their boxing skills (against someone in their weight division at that skill level). Who would you choose? (b) If you could only watch one boxing fight from all time for the rest of your life, what fight would it be? All of the fighters and fights that come to mind when making your decisions would be of great interest to me but I would love to know what your final decisions would be. Thanks in advance. Daryl Morgan

Bread’s Response: (a) This is a tough question. It comes down to four fighters for me. It’s Ray Robinson at welterweight from the 1940s. Ray Leonard 1979-82. Roy Jones 94-98. Ali 64-67. I feel comfortable picking any of the four but your question is who I feel most comfortable with. My answer is Sugar Ray Robinson by a hair. 

If I could watch one fight from all time over and over… James Toney vs Mike McCallum 1 or Vasiliy Lomachenko vs Jorge Linares.

Hello Breadman, Crawford I agree right hook but he’s probably even better when he throws it to the body. It’s nasty. Inoue, I like his shotgun jab. He seems to intimidate all his opponents with it. Loma, it might be his left uppercut – he just doesn't throw it much. If I remember, he knocked out Roman Martinez with a textbook uppercut-hook combo. The left underneath does debilitate his opponents after he’s pivoted around to their side. Bivol it’s cheating but it’s actually his pendulum bounce out-in one-two, I can’t pick a single punch. Benavidez I like his slightly looping right hand, which usually comes after a jab. He punches through people not just through their guard with that punch. Usyk and Ward their best punch is the one they don't throw. They don't give up many opportunities even when openings are there. Prudent level-headed fighters. I do like Usyk’s lead left to the body also. And Ward had like an overhand right he would throw then smother. Holyfield and Bam I would have to study tape. I can see left hook with Holyfield, and maybe his short uppercut with Bam. Bam is so good at everything though with great balance always in position to punch I rate him very highly. With Tank and Roach, a draw was the fairest outcome in my opinion. Technically, it could have been called a knockdown, but Roach would have won on a technicality. Is that really besting the other fighter, you know? It was different to me for example than the way Dubois took a knee vs. Joyce. I thought that Jack Reiss explained it quite well in the ProBox video you were also in. Incidentally it reminded me a little of when he reffed Wilder-Fury 1. A little controversial but ended with the fairest outcome. They should just run it back. I want to see it. I loved what Roach did. I could swear Oscar read your mailbag where you'd mentioned why Crawford doesn't seem to burnout or drop off! It's the 5th or 6th time I've seen a notable figure in boxing seemingly influenced by that week’s mailbag. I don't know if people tell you directly but I'm certain you are highly respected inside the boxing industry. If Boots handles Stanionis he will start to get into mainstream pound for pound contention. If you just go by reputation or what people say then Martin Bakole has damn near knocked out every top heavyweight in sparring. It's sink or swim a little bit for Boots here, if he's going to be what he's supposed to be. I hope he isn't underestimating Stanionis. It's the fights at the end of a fighter's career that do the most damage. It comes out 10 years later in life even if the fighter feels not much different at the time. I will be honest, this is why I would be happy to see JRock retire they will only use him as an opponent from this point on. Ageing is scientifically a slow degradation that cannot be reversed (with current technology anyways). You can only do more damage to your body and not only speed it up but worsen it by taking damage whether through fights, drinking alcohol, taking drugs or so on. Any substance abuser looks older than their biological age we have all probably known somebody like that. There's a reason older fighters take longer to recover from fights and workouts. Maybe boxing should be viewed a little bit like an addictive substance. You are very wise about not rushing to an opinion, it applies to judging young fighters too as you've said. Much Respect

Bread’s Response: So you think the most fair outcome to Tank vs Roach would have been a draw? Well, if you were a part of Team Roach you wouldn’t think that. However, I see your point. From my personal perspective, I don’t have a big issue with the draw. Tank vs Roach was an evenly contested fight. But I do have an issue with the missed knockdown call because it always seems to happen to the B side fighter.

I see people in boxing use things that I say on a consistent basis. Sometimes it’s flattering and sometimes it’s frustrating. I agree about Boots. I feel like if he’s going to be the P4P type of fighter that many think he is, he has to take of business vs Stanionis. I think he will take care of business. I think he’s going to get a mercy stoppage on Stanionis between 9-11. I don’t think he’s overlooking Stanionis. I think he’s motivated by the harsh criticism that he’s been getting.

Long-time fan, first-time writer. Thank you for doing what you do. I’ve been a boxing fan since my parents took me to a movie theater and the newsreel showed the first Patterson/Johansson fight. My dad liked Floyd and my mom was from Denmark so she liked Ingo (close enough to Sweden). It shows that good people can disagree. My question is kinda different, I think. But what if you knew everything you know about boxing today but you were able to project yourself back in time to the first fight between Clay (Ali) and Liston what would have been your prediction? Would you have given Clay a chance for the upset or would you have predicted Liston to steamroll him? Please explain your rationale for your prediction. Thank you for reading this letter. Curt, Omaha

Bread’s Response: Basically, you’re asking me to be a Monday Morning Quarterback. Or should I say a Sunday Morning Coach. If you know the answers to the test, you can always get the prediction right. But I will do my best. Ali’s chin and durability were in question in 1964 when he fought Sonny Liston. If the world knew, they were watching arguably the most durable fighter in history at his athletic peak, Ali wouldn’t have been a 7 to 1 underdog. Stylistically, methodical fighters have trouble with blue-chip Olympians who fight on the bounce. Leonard troubled Hagler. Taylor troubled Chavez. Oscar troubled Tito. Also, hard heavy bag jabbers have trouble with quick piston jabbers. So the signs were there that Ali could beat Liston. But again, I don’t want to toot my own horn, I have the luxury of “looking back” on several decades of examples to come up with my assessment.

I like Chordale Booker. That being said, he was absolutely destroyed the last time he faced a southpaw who was close to championship level. Is it inevitable that Sebastian Fundora takes Booker apart, or do you give Booker a chance to score an upset? Thank you!

Bread’s response: I like Chordale Booker also but he’s the underdog for a reason. And the main reason is he was stopped pretty bad by Ammo Williams. But I won’t say it’s inevitable that Fundora stops him. Fundora was brutally KOd by Brian Mendoza. Fundora also was dropped and hurt bad by Erickson Lubin. He was busted up by Tim Tzsyu. And he may have gotten a gift vs Sergio Garcia. I respect Fundora. I think he’s the real deal. But he’s not invincible and he’s not a huge one punch type of guy so I wouldn’t be surprised if this fight went into the later rounds.

Hi Bread, Hope you’re well. How do you now see Ortiz Jr vs Boots – post Madrimov? A little closer or it hasn’t change your predicted result? If they fought next – Ortiz gonna burn out soon. Ortiz vs Conwell? Is Tim Tszyu done? I really thought he was gonna dominate 154. He lost momentum. He seems super resilient. I say he stops Spencer then Thurman. Benn-Eubank, predictions? I liked Benn on his way up. A machine. Now we know why. Lost his pop. Can he contain even an aging Chris? Take care, Diego

Bread’s response: I was impressed with Ortiz’s patience and composure during the fight with Madrimov. But I still favor Boots to win a competitive shootout. I also favor Conwell over Ortiz but just slightly. I can see more roads to Ortiz beating Conwell than I can him beating Boots.

I don’t know if Tim Tszyu is done. But the hype for him did come crashing down. I am curious to see how he looks vs Joey Spencer. Tzsyu wasn’t just hurt and stopped, he was completely taken apart. Some fighters can come back from that and some can’t. We just have to wait and see.

I can’t call Benn vs Eubank. When I saw Benn vs Chris Algieri I said to myself, I hope his next opponent’s request extended VADA testing. He hasn’t looked the same. As for Eubank, he looks like he’s declined somewhat. Eubank also doesn’t look confident around Benn so I have no idea how this fight goes. 

Hello Sir, How good was Carl Froch in his prime? Thank you

Bread’s Response: Froch was better than good. He turned out to be a HOF. He defeated every fighter he ever faced except Andre Ward. He turned out to be the second-best super middleweight of his era. He’s a fighter who’s sum total outweighs his parts. Froch is a fighter who got everything out of his ability. Everything single drop. You have to respect an athlete that left no food on the table. 

I was not a fan of Froch because he always criticized Muhammad Ali, and I thought it was unnecessary. And it’s easier to criticize a fighter you aren’t a fan of. So it would be easy for me to criticize Froch. But objectively speaking I can’t criticize his career. He actually overachieved and went to the HOF, while taking tough fight, after tough fight.

Greetings Bread, As it stands currently, after the Beterbiev win, where does Bivol rank on the ATG list of light heavyweights? In this contemporary era of otherwise excellent fighters missing big names or big paydays, he's one of the rarities who's done it all: defeated two reigning undisputed champions, defeated five former or future world champions (Pascal, Smith Jr., Ramirez, Alvarez, and Beterbiev), and his only loss was razor close. The Ramirez win in particular is looking better with each year. Furthermore, if Bivol were to defeat Benavidez, where would THAT place him? Props always for the Mailbag. Dan, UK

Bread’s Response: In my opinion out of the original eight divisions and divisions above featherweight, light heavyweight is the easiest to break into the top 10 All time. There is a strong argument that the three best light heavyweights ever in Ezzard Charles, Gene Tunney and Sam Langford are all non-champions at light heavyweight. No other division in history can make that claim. 

Then there are some terrific light heavyweight champions like Michael Spinks, Archie Moore, Bob Foster and Billy Conn. Over the last 40 years Michael Spinks is the only light heavyweight who is a consensus top 10 pick all time pick in the division. After Spinks’s reign only Roy Jones, Sergey Kovalev and Darius Michalchewski have claims for great light heavyweight fighters. I have Roy Jones hovering in the top 10 area. Jones’s resume at light heavyweight is better than his resume at middleweight and super middleweight combined. Jones is the best light heavyweight in my opinion since the Spinks era which ended in 1985. 

I believe Bivol and Beterbiev are just about equal to Jones as far as their ability and accomplishments at light heavyweight. So my overall take is Bivol is hovering around the top 10. If Bivol were to beat Beterbiev in the trilogy fight and beat David Benavidez he would be firmly in the top 10.

I just watched the Elijah Garcia vs Terrell Gausha press conference out of interest. I don't know if you ever looked into Charles Farrell when I previously mentioned him to you. He's the guy who claims to have been involved in fixing fights in the past. One of the ways he explained it is, in fights that should be wide unanimous they will give a guy a split decision loss to keep him viable moving forward. I have to say it does look like it when you see how many times this happens in boxing. I noticed a lot of things that Charles Farrell said seem to be accurate if you start paying attention to it once it's pointed out. The first thing Miguel Flores did was introduce Garcia as coming off a 'tough majority decision loss'. I’m very interested to see Garcia vs Gausha for a few reasons. It could be it's not on the level and as Gausha is nearing 40 and coming to the end they might pay him to take his first ko loss, rejuvenating Garcia's career momentum. I don't know if Gausha is the type of person who would agree to that I don't want to disrespect anybody. It could be they're trying to figure out how good Garcia is, and was his fight with Kyrone a blip? It's an interesting style choice coming off the last fight. For my part, if Garcia is as good and has the potential I thought he did before he fought Kyrone then I do think he'll overwhelm and stop Gausha. So I'm very interested to see what happens. Gausha is very hard to ko he's tricky and fundamentally sound, if it does happen it should be a referee stoppage. Weigh-in will also be interesting last I remember Garcia pulled out several times and was saying he can't make 160 anymore after Kyrone beat him.

Bread's response: Let me preface my comment with this first.. I believe Terrell is an honest hard-working fighter. I don't want to in slightest question his character. I think this is a winnable fight for him. When I saw that they picked Gausha as Garcia's comeback fight, I thought to myself that's a risky choice. Terrell fought well vs Carlos Adames. There were people in the audience who thought he may have earned a draw....

Elijah has a hard time defending a right hand. And Terrell's best punch is a right hand. Interestingly enough I believe the reason Terrell was picked was because of temperament more so than his style. Style-wise he's going to give Elijah some issues. But his temperament allows him to be outworked. Elijah does work. I'm interested in this fight.

I haven't looked up Charles Farrell but I will now....

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