The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling topics such as Julio Cesar Chavez, Spence vs. Ugas, Russell vs. Magsayo, Bernard Hopkins, Vergil Ortiz, Canelo Alvarez, and more.
Dear Breadman, I was surprised in reading your picks for the best streaks that you left out Julio Cesar Chavez? Was that deliberate or just a memory slip?
Leslie Gerber
Woodstock NY
Bread’s Response: When I’m asked a question 99% of the time I go off the top of my head. I may check boxrec for a time and date but for the most part it’s off the top of my head. But the picks I made of Robinson, Charles, Armstrong, Leonard and Pacquiao I stand by. I am a huge fan of Julio Cesar Chavez and if I had to make a list of top unbeaten streaks in history he would be up there. But I don’t think Chavez had a streak in his career that was better than the 5 I listed. He may have had a great unbeaten streak. But it’s more to it than that. It’s the scalps you collected. It’s how hot you are etc. Chavez had some hard nights at 130lbs that we have forgotten. Rocky Lockridge and Juan Laporte both thought they won when they fought him. I thought Chavez won both fights but they weren’t his best nights. I think Chavez’s best run was from 85-93. During that time he beat some great fighters like Rosario, Camacho, Taylor and Mayweather. But I don’t think it matched the streaks of scalps of the aforementioned fighters.
Hello Breadman ,
Been hearing about Spence Ugas fight . If this fight does come off , I see Spence winning easy . The most puzzling thing is why Spence Crawford has not happened . Seems this is the most talked about fight , and the fight the fans want to see . I dont see this fight being about a lack of money . Maybe there is bad blood and Spence just wont fight Crawford ever . Or maybe he is waiting Crawford out , there is about three years difference in ages . This fight may begin to lose its shine . The part I cant believe is that the promoters have not put this together . They should be given a choice , fight each other , or face Boots Ennis . How do you think Ennis figures into the WW division , can he get title fights or will he be frozen out.
Thank You
J.B.
Bread’s Response: I think Spence will the favorite over Ugas. I would slightly favor him if I were setting odds but that doesn’t mean I’m picking him just yet. I have to see how they look in camp. Ugas has a nasty variety to his right hand which is his rear power hand. Judges see this shot more than any other shot. Ugas’s right hand scores similar to way Rigondeaux’s and Lara’s left hand does. Ugas’s right hand can be straight, an over hand, a loop and an uppercut. That’s the Achilles Heel to a southpaws because they usually put their left glove up to side of their face to defend the right hand and Ugas is an expert on getting his money past their defense. Spence will have to be really aware. Ugas also counters to the body, which is depleting because fighters blow air out when they punch and Ugas hits them to the body as they are punching. A body counter puncher is rare but very effective. I think Ugas vs Spence will be close either way. Spence is the better athlete but Ugas is just as skilled and his confidence is sky high. I think Ennis will be a mandatory before the year is out. And I suspect he will fight for a vacant belt. Which belt, I have no idea.
Greetings Mr. Edwards,
A few questions. Good call on the Russell-Magsayo matchup. I thought Russell raised his stock even in a loss by toughing it out against a dangerous younger puncher while being injured. It was a great display of ring generalship along with IQ and footwork. However, I did think it was weird that he admitted to being injured before the fight. Most of the time, boxers admit to being injured after the fight if they lose. It looked to be a close fight where Magsayo got the nod. I'm curious to how you scored it? When other boxers, writers, and trainers are describing a fighter having physical strength or being strong, what exactly are they describing? It sounds as if this is apart from strictly punching power, so are they describing strength in clinches? Chin? Ability not be as moved by punches? I recently watched an interview with Buddy McGirt, where he responded to some poster saying that he wasn't that good because he has losses. Lol. I know that obviously isn't true, but in your words, how good was Buddy? What were his strengths and weaknesses?
Deon
Bread’s Response: I didn’t score the fight as I was watching it but here is the feeling I had. I thought Magsayo was winning early. Maybe the first 2 or 3 rounds. I thought he was landing a nice counter right hand, especially to the body. I felt like after Russell hurt his right arm, Magsayo started over pressing and he stopped landing his counter shots somewhere around the 3rd round. He started leading and Russell started running him into his left hand and made him miss his onslaught. I’m not sure if Russell got credit for his work in the 2/3 of the fight.
During that time I felt Russell hurt Magsayo with a left hand to the body which made Magsayo a little apprehensive. After Magsayo settled in I felt like he started to outhustle Russell down the stretch. I also felt he hit Russell with a left hook high on the head that buzzed Russell. After the fight before the cards were announced, I thought either Magsayo or Draw. My initial gut reaction is always the most important and authentic.
I can’t say what other people are describing when they say a fighter is strong. But I can tell you what I’m describing. I’m talking about the ability to move their opponent or hold their ground against resistance. And how long they can sustain this strength. Punching power is different. Often times punching power and strength are confused.
Buddy McGirt was a great fighter. He was slick. He was fearless. He was technically sound. He had excellent footwork. He had fast hands. He had excellent punch variety. He was durable. I don’t view him as an ATG fighter. But I do think he has a case for being a great fighter. I wouldn’t argue with anyone who thought he was. In the 90s he was as high as top 5 P4P. McGirt also could punch. He had some nasty kos with both hands. He fought one of the perfect fights of the 90s vs long reigning champion Simon Brown. Brown was a top P4P fighter, the favorite and a long time defending champion and McGirt took him to school in one of the better performances of the 90s.
In your previous mailbag, you answered a question on top 10 defenses of all time, and I was surprised Bernard Hopkins didn’t get a mention. I was a big fan of Hopkins, and although I am too young to have seen and appreciated some of his earlier work, I witnessed his later and impressive run at light heavyweight and he just had a way of nullifying his opponents offense and slowing down the pace of a bout, down to HIS pace. He really dictated the ring and I think a big part of that was his defense. He was hard to hit clean. How would you rate B-Hop’s defense?
Bread’s Response: I think Hopkins had great defense. But I was asked top 5 ever. Although I think Hopkins defense was great, I think his IQ and Ring Generalship were better. That was his gift. Hopkins knew how when to slow it down and when to speed it up. If you couldn’t carry him fast with speed, he was impossible to beat. His defense was great but that IQ and Ring Generalship of his were off the charts. I’m very specific when analyzing fighters.
Got it! while I am at it, as of right now, with just 19 fights, is Usyk already a first ballot Hall of Famer the moment he retires... you know his credentials?
Thanks!
Bread’s Response: YES!
Hey Bread, what do you think of Vergil Ortiz leaving Robert Garcia for Eddy Reynoso only for Reynoso to have not have enough time for him and now hire Manny Robles. Does this happen often in boxing, where a fighter goes to a big name trainer and the trainer doesn’t have the time for him or maybe they aren’t a good a fit? And how would you feel if you were Robles, knowing you weren’t the first option?
Bread’s Response: This is a really good question. I thought Robert Garcia was doing a good job with Ortiz. I’m really high on Vergil Ortiz. I like fast, athletic, attacking fighters. They give the crowd and their fans instant gratification because there is usually very few dead spots in their fights. I don’t know anything personal on why he left Garcia and if I did I wouldn’t speak on it. It’s not my business. All I can say is fighters leave trainers. It’s the nature of the job. The trainer has the most important job but he has the least amount of job security. But just from my personal experiences in boxing. I have seen several fighters leave their trainers, for other trainers and then the trainer they went to, not be a good fit or not have the time for them they are used to getting. That’s on the fighter. Sometimes the issue is with the fighter and not the trainer. In Ortiz’s case I have NO idea what happened. He’s looked awesome and he’s still undefeated.
A wise man once told me, that all fighters are the same and never get too close to one. I didn’t do what he told me to do 100% but I listened and I heard him loud and clear. Manny Robles is doing his job. He shouldn’t feel any type of way. He’s treating the game like a business like he should. Robles is a fine trainer in his own right. He was the head man in the corner when Andy Ruiz upset Anthony Joshua. Robles deserves more credit as a top trainer.
Hey Bread,
Liked the Gary Russell outcome call, and a writers response to your prediction. “The Feel” for it. I tried to relate that to playing basketball: I’m throwing a pass exactly where I think (or know) my teammate will be, and he knows I’m about to put it there. We never previously discussed the plan for me to throw a pass at that exact spot (would be a tad difficult right in the middle of a game) but him and I both knew what was about to happen. That innate feel or connection to another or a thing. Is instinct like that in boxing rare? Who are the best fighter/trainers who have been in sync like that in big time fights? Where maybe the trainer doesn’t have to say what needs done, the fighter can feel what needs done by looking at his coach, for example? I’d love to hear who you think are some active boxing people with that kind of feel for the game? Thanks as always Bread, the past few mailbags have been very insightful!
Mark Stoy
Columbus OH
Bread’s Response: It’s hard for me to say how in sync another team is in a fight. The cameras don’t show all of the interaction in between rounds and often times trainers have different ways of solving similar problems. But I have seen some moments in fights where trainers said or asked for things and the fighter really picked up on it and got the job done.
In Ward vs Kovalev 1, after Ward got dropped, Virgil Hunter gave Ward one of the best speeches you will ever hear. Ward was inspired and he regardless of what you think of the outcome Ward clawed himself back into that fight round by round.
Joe Goosen told Diego Corrales, he better get inside vs Jose Luis Castillo. Chico got close and started cranking counter left hooks and the rest is history.
If you’re talking about unspoken syncs, I can’t really say. I believe they exist but I don’t want to play mind reader. However, I think it’s important for a fighter and trainer to be in tuned. There are things they need to drill in the gym so when certain issues arise in a fight, they have a common solution. I often see fighters who think they can do it alone and when times of trouble arise in a fight, they are in that ring alone. A fighter who is sync with his trainer, has his trainer with him in that ring. Maybe not physically but if their thinking is in sync they are together.
Greetings Mr Bread,
I Got 3 questions for you today 1. Who do you think would give Floyd Mayweather the most problems out of the 4 kings..I think stylistically Hearns would be a nightmare with the long jab hard right hand and boxing skills. I think Duran would also give him problems stylistically I mean Duran was better than Castillo n Maidana put together and that style gave him problems. I think Leonard wouldn't be so much of a stylistic problem but the relentlessness and the power would be the difference. Hagler would just be too big too powerful good boxing gr8 IQ wouldn't be fair.so basically I think he would hav lost at least 3 out of those four what's your take on that?..
2nd Question where do you rank Wilder/Fury trilogy amongst the best trilogies in heavyweight history Considering it had little to no technical boxing skill to take from? Can u name ur 5 best HW trilogies in the process ..
3rd question. I understand that boxing is a subjective sport but why does it seem like these days fans are more like fans of the fighters and promotional companies more than the sport itself? Was it also like that in your era i mean back when you were younger?
Gadaffi Mnisi from South Africa
Bread’s Response: Tommy Hearns is stylistically the hardest fight in the history of the welterweight division. No one really matches up with him well. It’s why Leonard’s ko of him in their fight has a case for being the best win in history. Hearns is actually greater than people realize and he’s already an ATG fighter. So Hearns is the toughest fight stylistically.
I don’t think it’s fair to Floyd to compare him to Hagler in a head to head fight. Floyd never weighed over 150lbs for a fight and Hagler was always a middleweight. That’s not a fair fight in a real fight.
Top 5 Trilogies in Heavyweight History:
Muhammad Ali vs Joe Frazier
Riddick Bowe vs Evander Holyfield
Tyson Fury vs Deontay Wilder
Floyd Patterson vs Ingemar Johannson
Muhammad Ali vs Ken Norton
I agree. I think fan and the media are too attached to promotional companies. It’s so weird. I get being attached to a fighter but a promotional company…..I just don’t get that. You say back in my day like I’m 80 years old, lol. As a younger fight fan I just loved certain fighters. Ray Leonard was my guy and I didn’t care who had their banner hung in the rafters. Evander Holyfield was my guy and I felt the same. Michael Carbajal, Marco Antonio Barrera and Roy Jones later. I never will get down with fans being fans of promotional companies. Promotional companies are important but it’s just not something I feel fans should be overly concerned with.
What's up Breadman...First, Hope all is well with you and your family. Second, Malik Scott talked about "dressing up fighters" and suggested people to watch Hearns vs Shuler. Which I did and that led me to these fights specially. The first one was Patterson vs Johannson. In the 5th round, coming out of a break, Patterson threw a left hook to the body causing Johannson to drop his right hand to protect the body. And in a flash, Patterson lands that famous Cus D' Mato leaping left hook that koed his foe.
The other fight was Leonard vs Eukland. In the 6th round (I believe), again coming out of a break, Leonard landed a wicked left hook to the body causing Eukland to drop BOTH his arms to protect the body. Leonard then threw the jab, what seemed like not to land, but to blind Eukland. He then followed that up with a quick right hand that dropped Eukland. You mind touching the importance of dressing up fighters? Thanks Bread. Peace and Blessings to you.
Bread’s Response: Malik Scott is a very sharp dude. I thought he did an excellent job with Wilder despite not getting the win. I like the term “dressing up”. Ok I will give you some dress ups. Floyd Mayweather kept hitting Diego Corrales with a hard stab jab to the pit of the stomach. Corrales’s eyes and posture started to overcompensate for the shot. Then BOOM at the beginning of a round, I forget which one, maybe the 5th or 6th, Mayweather shoots a hook to the head but it started out looking just like that stab jab to the body. He dropped Corrales and Chico never fully recovered.
Jose Luis Castillo stole the move from Mayweather and kept hitting Corrales with the same EXACT shot. Then in the beginning of the 10th round, he dropped him with the same left hook Mayweather dropped him with.
Randall Bailey is known for his straight right hand. He had it cocked all night and he finally clipped Mike Jones with it. But that wasn’t the “dress up”. In the very next round Jones was looking for the straight right hand and Bailey shot it underneath his line of sight in an uppercut form and kod him in one of the best set ups ever.
In the best DRESS UP of all time. Sugar Ray Robinson kept slamming his patented right hand body shot to Gene Fulmer’s kidney. He did it 3 or 4 times in a row in the 5th round. Each time Fulmer countered with a wicked right hand of his OWN. So Fulmer was sitting on the right hand to the body and this time before Fulmer’s RETURN right hand came in, Robinson threw the best left hook EVER and kod him for a 10 count.
I love punch set ups or as Malik would say dress ups. I can go all day about these. But these 4 I just spit off the top of my head. Excellent question.
Hello Breadman,
I pray you and your family are doing well. I loved your Kobe and Floyd comparison. They are similar to a tee and both have fathers who were professional in the same professions. It was more on point to me than your Lebron and Floyd comparison. I’m overjoyed that Gary Russell, Teofilo Lopez and Mikey Garcia were upset and Charlo and Tank were almost upset. Maybe these upsets will make these guys stop using the Mayweather blueprint of not challenging yourself against the best opposition to prove yourself. Fighters ducked top opposition in the past but never to this degree and the fighters of the past took more pride in being and proving they were the best. Now because of the success of Mayweather vs. Manny financially not artistically. Fighters are holding out hoping to cash out on a big payday by fighting inferior opposition and waiting to fight their biggest nemesis down the road.
The Mayweather Blueprint has showed them the way but it has ruined the sport in the process. I remember when Baldomir beat Judah and Floyd fought the loser Judah instead of Baldomir and then fought Baldomir instead of fighting Margarito. He claimed Manny was on drugs and wouldn’t fight him but had no problem with the drug issue and fighting Manny after Marquez knocked Manny out . It is cowardly and shameful . The fighter of today is more CEO than warrior and competitor and the sport is being diminished because of it. There are so many compelling matches that could be made that are just not happening because of politics and the business of boxing. It has been hurtful to watch . Which is why I haven’t been watching no where as much as I used to. Canelo is the biggest Floyd impersonator of all. He is the Russell Westbrook of boxing . Vastly overrated. He needs to fight Charlo immediately to get his creditability back. Those bogus belts he got fighting those bogus champions is fooling no one but his groupies.
Charlo, Beterbiev, Benividaes, Bivol are the guys he needs to fight to show he is a great fighter for real and not in the make believe hype world his groupies are living in. He has 5 debatable wins on his resume. Trout, Lara,Cotto and 2 with Triple G. He has 2 lackluster wins against Jacobs and Chavez Jr. He got totally dominated by Floyd. Are the standards that low nowadays for greatness? Just as Westbrook has devalued the triple double in basketball . He can’t shoot, defend and is a turnover machine. Canelo is the most bogus great fighter and undisputed champion ever. That is not hate. That is real. If he disposes of the 4 fighters I named without any controversy I and others will call him great. Not until then.
God bless and take care,
Blood and Guts from Philly
Bread’s Response: Long time no write in….I disagree with you about Canelo. He went to 168 and fought 3 undefeated champions all in their primes. He fought who was there. It’s not fair to back track and discredit the wins because he handled them. Smith, Saunders and Plant are all good fighters. All were very formidable. I also believe all had stylistic advantages over Canelo and he won each fight clean without controversy. From what I’m reading Canelo will fight Charlo next. That’s a real fight if it happens. I also want to say Canelo shouldn’t be asked to move up to solidify greatness. He’s already moved up from 154-168 and he dipped his foot in at 175. The move from 160 to 168 is the biggest jump in boxing from one division to the next.
I’ll keep this one simple: Do think Jack Johnson was guilty of ducking Sam Langford? It seems to me like the greats of the past talk of Langford as “The Boogeyman of Boogeymen”… like the monster other monsters look under the bed to check for… so do you think he was that for Johnson? I know Johnson was ducked, and other fighters besides Johnson ducked Sam Langford (so he would be far from alone).I don’t know, it always struck me as odd that Johnson never gave Langford a rematch in a time when the best black fighters (avoided and held at arm’s length by whites) would take each other on as many as 20 times!
What are your thoughts? This one has been bugging me for a while…Greg K.
Bread’s Response: Great Question. Um……Johnson did win their 1st fight. So he fought him and beat him. The A side fighter always gets the blame for fights not happening. Usually they should but in this case I don’t know. Johnson knew what he had to go through in order to win the title and get his shot. So he didn’t defend against any black fighters. I don’t know if “they” advised him to not fight any black fighters with the belt on the line. Or if he chose to draw the color line. Here is the thing. I can fairly assume that the powers to be at the time didn’t want Johnson to defend vs a black fighter who was capable of beating him because then their would be TWO Black heavyweight champions in a row and that would’ve too much for that time in history. After Johnson lost his title it took 22 years just for another black fighter in Joe Louis to even get a shot at the most prestigious title in boxing. I’ve read up on this and I read where Johnson admitted that Langford was a tough SOB and he had a chance to defeat him. He was also quoted in saying that he was going to be the only and last black heavyweight champion. So who really knows…..It does look like a duck but…..I think there were intriguing circumstances that contributed to it.
Good day Bread, Was listening to the Dougie Fischer interview with Miguel Cotto, Zab Judah and Paulie Malignaggi when he made an interesting comment - he pointed out that Puerto Ricans from the island have a very different style than stateside Puerto Ricans, especially in NYC. On the island they are technical and traditional bangers in the mold of Gomez, Cotto and Trinidad, yet in NYC you get flashy slicksters. Personally I cannot even think of any exceptions.
Do you notice any trend like this between genuine Mexican boxers and the first, second generation born in the US? Do you think a style divergence will happen in time? Also, what differences in style do you notice between NYC, Philly, Miami, Midwest, Southwest , West coast fighters across the country - are there any hallmarks or generalizations you expect to see in an opponent just by hearing where he's from? I always loved watching the rhythm of a fighter box of the bounce, but that doesn't seem in vogue anywhere today.
A couple years ago you made a "hit list" for Lomachenko if he wanted to retire an ATG, this was before the Lopez fight. He's looking RED HOT (and finally healthy) in his last two fights now - If he can land Kambosos and take those belts, what fights do you think he could put on a realistic hit list that gets him to ATG? Shakur seems the easiest promotion to make, but is that enough? Does he also need Haney or Garcia? (I have zero hope Tank would make that fight ever)
Don in Houston
Bread’s Response: Dougie has a point. A very good point. But off the top of my head Ivan Calderon was from the island and he was a slickster. I train a kid named Romuel “Cuco” Cruz a 6-0 super bantamweight. He’s from the Philly and he’s a banger. Doug has a point but there are some exceptions. I notice a difference in regions all the time. I also think trainers of different races train different. Not so much but different. There are certain things that they emphasize. I bring this up because if you see a Mexican fighter trained by a black trainer you will see that Mexican fighter do more urban stuff. Check out Oscar De La Hoya when he was trained by Emanuel Steward and Floyd Mayweather.
Fighters from the DMV and Cincinatti will often times use a high guard and walk you down. It’s not in a Mexican pressure way. It’s more of an athletic fast way to score points. Watch a young Adrien Broner. Watch Lamont Peterson. Different cities but similar styles.
Fighters from Detroit, use their lead hand to measure off often. They fight on the bounce with their lead hand extended.
Fighters from Philly can box but they will only box but so much. It’s hard to describe in words but Philly fighters have to feel they are hurting their opponents. It's nit so much trading as in rock em, sock em robots. But it's not alot of running. They box in the mid range often, punching, slipping and sliding. They won’t play keep away but for so much. Watch any fighter from Philly who made it to the elite level and they will have violence and forcefulness to their style. Bob Montgomery, Joe Frazier, Saad Muhammad, Jeff Chandler, Robert Hines, Meldrick Taylor, Bernard Hopkins, Danny Garcia, Tevin Farmer, Julian Williams and Stephen Fulton. All can box but they have a need for some violence. Squares don’t die round.
I love looking at regions and how they fight. Some people take offense to this but that’s just ridiculous. Different places have different tendencies. It’s human nature to MOCK. Not only do certain styles get picked up from regions but everyone mocks the best fighter in the GYM. Great Question!
If Loma regains his lighthweight title and beats just 1 of the other young guns I think he’s an ATG. For example if he beats Kambosos and say Davis he’s an ATG. I am very high on Loma. Him fighting Gary Russell at 1-1 was one of the riskiest moves in the history of boxing. He didn’t blink an eye. His run from 2016 with his win over Rocky Martinez up to 2018 with his win over Jorge Linares. That 6 fight run is one of the best APEX runs of the last 20 years. Loma was almost perfect and I think it burned him out a little bit.
I think he went so hard vs the ultra skilled Linares that he left a little something in the ring that night. He hasn’t looked platinum until 3 years after that night. Sort of like how Chocolatitio was after the Cuadras fight. So if Loma wins the title again at 135lbs, which seems to be his ceiling weight and then beats one of these super talented younger fighters who are hovering, I would call him an ATG. Loma is 13-2 in title fights through 3 divisions. That’s a very impressive record for a fighter who is only 16-2 overall. The critics are too hard on Loma. He’s a great fighter. Your eyes aren’t lying to you.
If you think of the best fighters from 126-130 over the last 40 years. Loma can hold his own or beat all of them. Danny Lopez, Salvador Sanchez, Wilfredo Gomez, Eusabio Pedraza, Azumah Nelson, Barry McGuigan, Jeff Fenech, Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Joel Casamayor, Floyd Mayweather, Diego Corrales, Manny Pacquiao, Joan Guzman……Loma is right with all of them. He may not win every fight, but he’s in every fight. And not too many fighters from this era you can say that about. There was no smoke and mirrors with his matchmaking. He FOUGHT! He fought undefeated fighters of different races who could really fight. He fought talented fighters almost a decade younger and bigger than him. No one had to hide Loma because they knew he was the goods. Loma was and is the real deal.
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