By Stephen 'Breadman' Edwards
The Daily Bread Mailbag returns, with Stephen 'Breadman' Edwards giving his take on today's greats, Manny Pacquiao's best fighting weight, Saturday's fight between Sergey Kovalev and Andre Ward, and more.
Hey Bread,
I've got a 2 part question about todays boxers vs yesterdays. I think that it will always be impossible to say a fighter from recent years and long into the future will ever be ranked as THEE GOAT and thats simply because of how much less todays fighters fight. Even fighters like Mayweather, Lewis, Jones Jr would probably scrape top 15 best ever compared to fighters from the mid 80's and before. Do you agree?
Second part is, everyone says that todays training methods are far superior than from methods in the 20's,30's,40's etc but you obviously have injuries occuring and you hear fighters say they're never really 100% when they fight. If that is the case now then what was it like before? Were fighters going into fights with even worse injuries and coming out victorious and if thats the case that must surely add to their greatness and support my 1st point?
Thanks Bread!
Sash
Bread’s Response: Great Question. I actually think a fighter of this era could be top 10 or 5or maybe the best ever. I think it’s more difficult but not impossible. Number of fights is definitely a factor. But the solution is simple. Fight more meaningful fights. Ray Leonard’s run at welterweight is still being applauded 30+ years later, when he took on Wilfred Benitez, Roberto Duran twice, Ayub Kalule in a tune up at 154 and Thomas Hearns all within a 2 year time period. It can be done!
I have examples……If your career is condensed you just have to fight the best available guy, be dominant and pass the eye ball test. Roy Jones in my opinion had a chance at GOAT status. Now he doesn’t even make the top 10 greatest living fighters. I still hate at how history remembers Jones…. But if Jones had fought at least one of the threatening UK super middleweights of his era. Steve Collins was available and ready. And if Jones fights Holyfield or Tyson at heavyweight and retires and chose not to fool around with Tarver at 175, no one can tell me his career is better than Manny Pacquiao’s and Floyd Mayweather’s who often get ranked over him historically. But he made the wrong turn. I still rank Jones in the top 20 ever. But historians tell me I overrate him.
Floyd Mayweather is undefeated. Most have him in the top 20 ever. He was just recently ranked #7 in the greatest living fighter list. If Mayweather does not take off from 2007-09, Manny Pacquiao would have never reached the status that he obtained. Pacquiao fought and beat Mayweather’s threats during that time. Mayweather is a few fights away from having a legit argument as the best ever. He wouldn’t have to have a 100 fight career either. Just be a little more aggressive in his matchmaking in my opinion.
There is one more guy from this era who had a chance. Manny Pacquiao. If Pacquiao kos Marquez convincingly and beats Mayweather he would have a legit top 5 ever argument. Think about it.
Fighters from the past fought with injuries also. They were just harder men, who fought for less money so they never complained they just fought. They didn’t have today’s recovery methods but they kept the training simple. I see fighters today with weird knee injuries. Knee injuries is uncommon among fighters because they don’t cut. But because of the dynamic drills that are used you see fighters hurting their knees. 50 years ago a knee injury to a fighter was almost unheard of.
They also overtrain because they do too much. Today's fighters do everything they see their counterparts doing on youtube and it doesn't translate to a fight.
But The biggest reason old timers were able to push through was hunger. They had to fight in order to eat! And don’t forget PEDS in this era. Excessive PED use causes injuries.....
Bread,
I'm a first time writer and a long time follower of the mailbag. I'll keep it short. Who you got in their prime?
Ike Ibeabuchi vs Holyfield
Salvador Sanchez vs Pacman (126)
Tommy Hearns vs Tito Trinidad (154)
Meldrick Taylor vs Floyd Mayweather (140)
James Toney vs Bernard Hopkins (168)
George Foreman (afro) vs George Foreman (baldy)
Keep up the good work....
Jamaal .... ATL
Bread’s Response: Ibeabuchi is a wild card. He passes the eyeball test but we don’t know enough about him. He beat Tua but Tua was very good, not great. He beat Byrd who was doing well against him and he probably falls into the same category. I would have to take Holyfield. Holyfield is an all time great.
Sanchez vs Pacquiao is a tough fight to pick. Sanchez has a better legacy at 126 but Pacquiao was a lights out puncher and had more physicality. When I looked a Sanchez I never thought he had the physicality to be a dominant welterweight like Pacquiao. For arguments sake I say Sanchez but it’s not as foregone as some think.
Tito vs the Hitman is another tough one. Most would pick Hearns but Tito was a monster at 154 and every bit as dominant as Hearns. I think Hearns was the better boxer and faster from point A to point B. But Tito had much better recuperative skills. I don’t think Hearns ever won a fight where he was knocked down. For arguments sake again I take Hearns but boy he would have to earn it.
Taylor vs Mayweather. Head to head this is a tougher fight than people realize. Taylor is faster and probably physically stronger than Floyd. Look at his performance vs Buddy McGirt. The problem is his defensive lapse. Meldrick was infatuated with his speed. I say Floyd takes a hard fought decision.
Toney vs Hopkins man this is a tough one. Hopkins has a better legacy because of longevity and discipline but head to head is different. Toney circa 93-94 is super special. I can remember both around that time I had the impression that Toney was a little bit too talented circa 94. Hopkins prime is hard to gauge. His physical prime may have preceded his “boxing” prime. So for argument sake let’s say Hopkin’s prime was from 95-01. Mercado rematch to the all time great performance vs Trinidad. I say they would have to fight 3 times to settle it and Hopkins would have to fight like he did vs Tito.
Foreman Afro beats Foreman with the Baldy. Afro Foreman is just too fast. Baldy Foreman would try like hell but he’s too stationary. If Afro Foreman didn’t get psychologically ruined by Ali he would’ve ruled into the 80s and went down as the best ever at heavyweight.
Bread,
What do you think Pacquiao's best weight was? I've always said itwas135 or 140 because Pac's power never translated to 147. If you look at his long KO drought, it coincides with his move to 147 (other than Algieri who he fought at 140). I just don't think his power translated to 147, which isn't a knock since he started his career at 106. Eventually the guys you're fighting are just too big. That's why I never thought he had a chance against Floyd. Everyone who picked Pac in that fight did it by giving him a power edge. Nobody acknowledged that he's never knocked out a 147 pounder (yes he beat up Cotto, but Cotto was shot in that fight after Vargas and the wrap issue). Manny simply didn't have enough power to truly test Floyd. Plus people don't give Floyd enough credit for his punching power when he wants to sit on his shots because he so rarely does so.
Along that line, given Pacquiao's performance against Vargas (and assuming Floyd is truly retired and out of the conversation) who do you think has the best chance to beat Pac? Let's limit it to guys from 135-154, the range in which he might actually fight. My belief is that Terrance Crawford is the only guy in that range that could beat him. I also think that's why Pac refuses to fight at 140 even though its a better weight for him. By not being at 140 he avoids people saying he should fight Crawford. What do you think?
Good luck with J-Rock.
Josh
Bread’s Response: What’s up Josh? I have to say I disagree with you. I think people look at the end result too much instead of the things that transpired during fights. Pacquiao is not the puncher at 147 that he was at 135 I agree. But he punches hard enough. I think the reason why he hasn’t scored the kos he used to has nothing to do with an actual drop in punching power. I think it has to do with three things. WHO he’s fighting, his lack of an extra gear where used to rain punches down on opponents and he tips off his attack. Throw in the Marquez KO which made him cautious and you have a dynamic boxer puncher who is more boxer than puncher these days.
If you look throughout history all great punchers ko % go down as they get older. George Foreman, Thomas Hearns, Julian Jackson……As you get older you lose explosiveness. It’s a fact. You may not lose actual power but you lose the ability to explode as quickly as you once did and catch opponents off guar.
If Pacquiao couldn’t punch anymore ask yourself why is he always knocking down, busting up, hurting or making opponents look tentative. Since his ko drought only Antonio Margarito attacked him like a savage. Everyone else is ultra careful. Margarito got beat half too death for his efforts.
So now let’s look at his opponents during his drought. Clottey had never been stopped and still hasn’t. Great chin. Margarito one of the better chins of the last 25 years and a huge man. Shane Mosely had never been stopped. One of the better chins of the last 25 years. Juan Manuel Marquez never been stopped in about 60 fights one of the better recuperative fighters in history. Tim Bradley never been stopped and one of the better recuperative fighters in history. Brandon Rios had never been stopped when Pacquiao fought him. Had one of the better chins in boxing at the time. Chris Algieri undefeated fighter who had never been stopped. Floyd Mayweather undefeated fighter, excellent chin and one of the best defensive fighters ever. Jesse Vargas, solid chin and had never been stopped. The devil is in the detail of the criticism.
Pacquiao hurt, beat up or dropped each opponent I named. No one is going to run through that list and get stoppages. No one. So his lack of kos get overstated in my opinion.
Pacquiao also tips off his moves. So his opponents can brace for the blow of death. Although he is fast and unpredictable, you can kind of feel when he wants to put some extra mustard on his money shot. “They” know him now.
Floyd is actually very complimentary of Manny’s power in his interviews. I assume he’s telling the truth. He was in there with him. I think Manny doesn’t have the gas tank he once had to throw 70 punches/round to drown out Floyd’s precision. Manny’s punch output has went down in recent years. That happens when you get 37 and have almost 70 fights. It’s not his lack of power.
I also disagree about Cotto being shot vs Manny. Few in history could have beaten the 09 circa Manny who are naturally his weight. How could Cotto be shot in 2009 when he gave Floyd a tussle in 2012 and won the lineal middleweight title in 2014? You have to be careful with repeating myths.
To answer you directly I think Manny would have been a terrific lightweight had he decided to stay there. I think he would have dominated 135 circa 2008 had he decided to stay there. He would also have been a great junior welterweight had he stayed there. You can see these things by his performances vs David Diaz and Ricky Hatton. But his run at welterweight was phenomenal because of this. Let me explain why.
The welterweights were just not equipped to deal with his fast twitch body rhythm and punch output. An elite smaller man gives a bigger man fits if he can take the punch. Manny was able to take the punches. That’s the reason why Marquez and Bradley gave him his toughest fights during that crazy run he had. They were smaller men who could handle the rhythm better. So 147 was a great weight for him also. It still is he’s getting clear decision after clear decision by simply out boxing his opponents.
I think there are fighters Manny can beat. I think there are fighters he should stay away from. 154 is too much for him and there are about 8 to 10 junior middleweights that he can’t beat. Too many kids up there walking around at 175lbs, between 5’10 and 6’ and under 30 years old. No way he can beat everyone at 154.
At 147 I think Errol Spence, Kell Brook and Keith Thurman are just too much. Although I think Manny would get his pound of flush. I think over the course of the fight they would where him down. At 140 we agree. Terrance Crawford would hurt Manny at this stage of his career. Crawford is the goods. If Manny were to beat Crawford that would be monumental but I just can’t see it at this stage. I think Manny beats everyone else at 140. He holds his own at 147.
I think Team Pacquiao does not go to 140 simply because the money is at 147. They also know Crawford is a nightmare stylistically.
What's up breadman? Hope all is well with you and yours. I would like your input on this subject. In regards to kovalev/Ward, the narrative being spoken is that this a puncher vs a pure boxer. I say that Andre ward is NOT a pure boxer. He's a great fighter and a p4p fighter regardless of the outcome of the fight but not a pure boxer. Everyone I speak to about it insists I'm crazy to say that. I always use pernell Whitaker as an example of a pure boxer. Or Floyd obviously. Those guys are silky smooth boxers that make their work look effortless. They also had every offensive tool in the toolbox to choose from. I don't think Andre ward has a deep offensive tool box. He has a few weapons that me makes work for him. I see ward as more or a spoiler type fighter who takes away his opponents strengths, is extremely physically strong, has a good motor, nice defense, and has an amazingly ability to make adjustments on the fly. Thoughts? Thanks for the read.
Bread’s Response: You really made me think with your statement. Last year someone asked me to describe different types of punchers. I found it interesting when I came up with 5 categories. I realized that just labeling a fighter a big puncher wasn’t enough.
Now I find myself thinking about the types of boxer punchers. As you pointed out there are different types. Ward does not go about his trade like say a Whitaker, Mayweather or Ivan Calderon. He’s also not as offensive minded as Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard and Terry Norris. So a neutralizer is not a bad category for him. But I caution you with labeling Ward, Because the guy is truly like water. He’s formless. Watch his fight vs Makranko in the 2004 Olympics and you see a pure athletic point scoring boxer. He’s unique.
By the way I’m picking Ward to win. I think he will neutralize Kovalev just enough.
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