By Stephen 'Breadman' Edwards
The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen 'Breadman' Edwards answering questions on Floyd Mayweather's recent Top 5 all-time list, Mayweather's upcoming fight with Andre Berto on September 12th, Cotto/Canelo vs. Gennady Golovkin, and more.
What do you think of Floyd’s all time top 5? Agree or Disagree? If you didn’t read it. He had himself as #1, #2 Duran, 3#Whitaker, 4#Chavez and 5#Ali. Floyd’s reasoning for putting Ali so low is because he suggest Ali was more of a political figure than a great boxer and because Ali didn’t move through weight classes. Floyd also states he has defeated more world champions than anyone else. Thoughts? I’m not a historian but do Robinson or Ali have any records that can challenge Floyd’s?
Bread’s Response: I love list but I don’t like to get into reasons why certain fighters are not on list because when you do, you have to put other fighters down. And it’s disrespectful to the greats in my opinion….
Now for Floyd’s list it’s actually a good list. List are subjective and most people won’t have the same exact list. Floyd and I are the same age so judging by his list I assume he started in the 70’s and didn’t go back any further. That’s fair because he probably judged on the fighters he could see and properly assess.
I didn’t read about the list but once I received your email, I read Floyd’s comments. He gives valid reasons…I just don’t totally agree. Through extensive research and film study there is no way I could leave Sugar Ray Robinson out of the top 5 fighters ever. Going by the eyeball test, accomplishments, who he fought , who he missed and response to adversity there is no way Ray Robinson can be off of my list. Floyd has fought and defeated over 20 world champions but being a world champion in this era and being in the HOF are different. I give more significance to being in the Hof, it’s an harder accomplishment. But again list are subjective.
If you like records Ray Robinson’s peak record was 128-1-2. The draws and loss were avenged. If you keep that in perspective Robinson defeated every man he fought in his first 130 bouts. That’s absolutely insane in any era, but in the 1940’s which is boxing best ever era it’s mindboggling. Robinson also fought 11 HOF. Sammy Angott, Henry Armstrong, Carmen Basilio, Gene Fullmer, Kid Gavilan, Joey Giardello, Jake Lamotta, Joey Maxim, Bobo Olson, Randy Turpin and Fritzie Zivic. He defeated each one except for Giardello and Maxim and most in most cases he defeated them multiple times. That’s not including the killers who couldn’t break though because there was only title in those days like Tommy Bell, Tiger Wade, Marty Servo, George Costner and Jose Basora. In my humble opinion Sugar Ray Robinson is the best fighter to ever live.
Robinson has a record for winning the middleweight title 5 times. Some detractors will say he had to lose it that many times in order to win it. But the great part about that record is he had to defeat a HOF each time in order to win it. And he was past his prime each time. What a fighter.
I also don’t hold Ken Norton against Ali as much as Floyd does. Ken Norton was a great fighter and Ali did enough in my opinion to overcome his tough fights with Ken Norton. I personally don’t think Norton gave Ali any more problems than Jose Luis Castillo gave Floyd. And Ali fought Norton in his hometown once.
As for Ali’s records I have a great one for you. Ali is the only professional fighter to defeat 4 Olympic Gold Medalist as pros. Floyd Patterson, Joe Frazier, George Foreman and Leon Spinks. He has 19 title defenses which could have been a lot more had he not been exiled for over 3 years. And he fought 8 HOFs in Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Joe Frazier, Bob Foster, Ken Norton, George Foreman and Larry Holmes. He defeated each one except for Larry Holmes.
For some reason it seems common to say NOW that Ali’s greatness lies in his political stand in the time. But lots of athletes stood up like him in the 60’s and 70’s but none shined as bright. Ali had to deliver in the ring and deliver he did. Ali’s character inside the ring is higher than any man I have ever witnessed. Pain and adversity to him, is as common as a cold to a baby in a day care. He often fought on the road in his opponent’s hometowns when he was the so called A side. Other times he took fights as the underdog just to show he was the King of King’s.
From a pure boxing point of view from 1964-67 Ali’s peak years, there aren’t 5 or 6 men in a p4p sense who could defeat him. Just watch his fight with Cleveland Williams in you need proof. Ali’s heart and speed get talked about so much people underestimate his best boxing weapon, his JAB. On a list of the best jabs in boxing history, Sonny Liston, George Foreman and Bob Foster would all be in the top 10. Ali outjabbed and stopped each one of those guys! People can talk about him not body punching all they want, in his peak years which were the 60’s he didn’t have to body punch. His jab wore his opponents down just as effectively. A hard consistent jab, snaps the head back in way, where your spine is consistently effected. It saps the legs and overall stamina. Ali scored lots of mid to late round kos for a man who is not considered a puncher. The jab was the reason.
My top 5 ever are 1.Ray Robinson 2. Muhammad Ali 3. Henry Armstrong 4. Roberto Duran 5. Willie Pep. I want to make note that Harry Greb and Sam Langford probably should be in the list but there is no film on Greb so assessing him is tough because I can only assess is results then look at men he fought on film and assess how good he must have been. There is footage on Langford and it’s hard to imagine any man beating him comparable to his size on his best night but the film is limited so for arguments sake I will leave both out.
If we go by the Ali Era until the present which is where all of the fighters on Floyd’s list are from our list would be very similar. I would have 1.Ali 2.Duran 3. Leonard 4. Jones 5.Whitaker. Floyd Mayweather, Eder Jofre, Marvin Hagler, Carlos Monzon, Julio Cesar Chavez, Emille Griffith, Evander Holyfield and Manny Pacquiao all could be on there and have valid arguments.
What chances do you give Andre Berto to beat Floyd Mayweather? Does he have any advantages whatsoever? What is your estimation on the PPV buys?
Bread’s Response: I think the fight will do about 750k ppv buys. But in order to hit that number they may have to lower the price tag….
I don’t think Berto has any advantages over Floyd Mayweather. Berto may hit harder but Floyd has the better chin so as my theory goes when two fighters fight, the one who can take his opponent’s punches better is the harder puncher.
Berto’s chances are very slim. Let’s be honest he has a really tough fight ahead of him. But let’s hope the kid has self belief, he doesn’t get caught up in the moment and he fights way over his head.
I want to add one thing. I think Berto’s best biggest asset in this fight is Floyd’s mindset. I really believe Floyd wants to ko Berto. Floyd has only scored 3 kos in since moving up to welterweight in 2005. And his last one vs Victor Ortiz was a little controversial. So I really think Floyd wants a ko. The problem is when you don’t do something for a long time you sort of lose your ability to manifest it. Floyd will try to take an opponent’s head off early with a big right hand and when he can’t get the ko, he uses his incredible ring IQ and reflexes to sort of pick shots and cruise. All of his fights seem to take the same course. His win streak is very important to him so he won’t take any unnecessary chances once he feels he has a fight won.
With Berto I think Floyd will take chances because the threat level won’t be there. It’s not that Berto can’t punch but he has not proved to be on the level of any of Floyd’s opponents since moving up. I don’t know if I would favor Berto over any of Floyd’s opponents since he moved up to 147. So in Berto he may sense a more vulnerable opponent that will allow him to dig in and go for a ko and not just pot shot to a victory.
If this happens I think it gives Berto his best chance. Because when a fighter is trying to knock out his opponent it automatically makes him more vulnerable to be hit. That’s why dynamic offensive fighters get clipped every once in a while. They open up and it leaves them open. Floyd going for a ko is Berto’s best chance.
Hey Bread,
I just wanted to say quickly that I've started to read your column on boxingscene and really enjoy it (especially at work). What are your thoughts on the american boxing fans way of embracing a fighter compared to other countries? I live in England and it's great to see that we are able to fit 20,000 people for a local derby fight (Campbell vs Coyle) and sometimes it's sad to see fighters at world level e.g. Bradley, Dirrell brothers, Garcia, Malignaggi etc having trouble filling out arenas or fighting in front of 6,000 people or maybe less. Do you think it's because the promoters aren't doing a good enough job? Live gate not as important or when Mayweather said that there isn't enough dominant white fighters so the white fans go over to UFC? Personally I believe if any of the above fighters were based over here or Mexican then they would have a much greater and passionate fanbase. Paulie himself once said he wished he started his career in the UK purely that he would have had more fans.
Also what's your prediction on Anthony Joshua vs Dillian Whyte if it happens in December?
Thank you and keep up the good work!
Bread’s Response: AJ by tko. I like the big fella.
I think the reason why American arenas don’t sell out is because of the climate. Not the temperature but the actual feel of the promotion. In America the promoter has so many other ways to generate income that they just don’t feel the need to sell out a 20k arena. They embrace it if it happens but they don’t go the extra mile to “make” it happen. Too many fights at casinos instead of grass roots venues.
The second reason is the perception of the fans. Believe it or not in big cities in America the fans don’t care as much as they do in small towns where the fighter is more like the franchise. For example Terrence Crawford is a star in Omaha. They love the kid. If Crawford were from Philadelphia or Chicago he wouldn’t get embraced like that. The big city fans have other sports to hold onto and historically they just don’t embrace their stars like small town boxing fans do. The promoters need to hire better marketing specialist and find out why.
My suggestions is a fighter from Philly or Chicago needs to be showcased in the summer time. After the NBA and NHL finals and before the NFL and NCAA start. So all eyes can be on them. Then the promoters need to do grass roots research. Go to the fighter’s old neighborhood and highschool and push from there. Then hit the urban radio and tv shows. I’m giving up too much infosomeone is going to have to cut me a check….if I keep going.
The UK although it’s huge it has the same feel as that small town like Omaha but on a larger scale. They seem to embrace everything passionately. I don’t know if it’s a built in love or a manufactured one..I think both.
Bread:
Thank you for posting my comment as well as your response. However; my understanding was that the Cotto-Alvarez winner MUST fight GGG. That said, it seems to be the consensus that it is highly unlikely that either winner will ever agree to fight him and that the title shall ultimately be vacated. This is all conjecture of course. Although, since there seems to be talk of a rematch clause between Cotto-Alvarez this would all but insure that neither of them will fight GGG any time in the near future.
As far as my comment about Lara, on the contrary I see no issue with a Lara-GGG fight it provided it is indeed at 160. Lara is a junior middleweight and my comment was that Floyd is the only fight he should every consider making this concession to fight at 154, again for obvious reasons. Other than that, sure if his options are limited after the Lemieux fight which as you correctly stated could be. As the Cotto-Alvarez is hardly a given and Jacobs/Mora and/or Lee/Saunders winners I am sure would have great trepidation with stepping into the ring with GGG. As I said, for most fighters there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Marvelous Marvin Hagler school of ruling one division. As we know very often many fighters have achieved greatness in doing so.
The GGG-Lemieux fight has everything it takes to be very interesting one. Kudos to David Lemieux taking the fight, as the man has has my respect for doing so.
Thanks
Bread’s Response: Here is the thing….sanctioning bodies are flexible. They don’t demand ALL fighters make mandatories. Canelo, Cotto, Mayweather and Pacquaio are the biggest stars in boxing. So they don’t have to do what other fighters have to do. If the sticking point in the Canelo vs Cotto negotiations are a rematch clause, you guys have to realize that GGG may not get the winner immediately.
I personally don’t feel like either Canelo or Cotto will go directly to GGG after they fight. We shall see…..
GGG is 33 he doesn’t have time to wait around for bigger name fighters to fight him. Martinez ducked him. Cotto is looking in other directions at catchweights. Canelo is just moving up and I assume if he wins his 1st defense won’t be against a monster where he will be the underdog. I don’t care what “they” say. I’m not certain GGG will get 1st cracks at either guy so therefore he needs to keep doing his thing and that is fighting the best available fighter.
Who do you think are the 5 most influential figures in boxing history who weren’t boxers?
Bread’s Response: You guys love list, my goodness. In no order…..Now remember you said influential. Frankie Carbo, Blinky Palermo, Don King, Bob Arum and Al Haymon, with an honorable mention to Tex Rickard. You young guys will have to do some research on these names but boy oh boy are these guys “shot callers.”
I want to see where your head is Bread. I have about 10 mythical match ups and going by your answers I can tell where you are. Floyd Mayweather vs Ike Williams, Donald Curry vs Andre Berto, Anthony Joshua vs Ike Ibeabuchi, Canelo Alvarez vs Tony Ayala, Julio Cesar Chavez vs Terrance Crawford, Sergey Kovalev vs Michael Spinks, Danny Garcia vs Meldrick Taylor, Erislandy Lara vs Mike McCallum, Roman Gonzales vs Johnny Tapia, Miguel Cotto vs Aaron Pryor.
Bread’s Response: I don’t understand what you mean by where my head is. My answer is, what my answer is. I hope you aren’t like that idiot troll on the boxingscene blog who micro manages everything I say and somehow comes up with a conspiracy theory.
Williams by a tough decision. Head to head he’s as fine as fighter as you will see hovering around 135lbs.
Curry vs Berto shouldn’t be on here. That’s a carnage viewing. The 83-85 Curry would beat any welterweight in the world right now and any welterweight of the last decade. Curry and Berto is a 3 round fight tops.
I don’t know enough about Joshua yet, so I’m taking Ol Crazy Ike.
Canelo vs Ayala is tough for me. Let me take Canelo because I think he is sturdier mentally but Ayala was every bit as good at the same age in a better era. Tough pick.
Chavez UD over Crawford.
Spinks brutal late ko Krusher. Spinks is top 5 ever at 175 in my opinion. Most underrated fighter of boxing’s second greatest era.
Taylor tough decision over Garcia. Too fast, too busy, too mean and ornery down the stretch to give.
McCallum by late tko. Lara doesn’t have enough to hold off one of the best chins and body punchers ever.
Tapia SD over Gonzales. Yes I said it. Tapia is a great fighter. Went deep in his career undefeated. Had a great chin, great left hook to liver. Great stamina. Gonzles would bring it but Tapia would welcome it.
Cotto has more longevity and a better resume but Pryor would walk him down and knock him out. I’m sure of it. Pryor as good as there is head to head around 135-140. I can only think of a few men who can hang with him at those weights and Cotto ain’t one of them.
I backed Floyd for many years. I was quick to point out that Baldomir deserved the fight with him because he was the lineal champions. I was quick to point out why Maidana deserved the fight also. But I can’t defend Berto. Berto was knocked out by Jesus Soto Karass and hasn’t done much in his comeback to deserve this fight. Was I wrong for defending Floyd all of these years?
Bread’s Response: Man there must be something in the water this morning you guys are all over the place. Here is the thing….Fans shouldn’t hold what a fighters says as the holy grail. Fighters are like politicians but to a lesser extent. If they talk enough they will contradict themselves. Floyd gave us 2 super fights in the Canelo and Pacman fights in the last 2 years. And in between those fights he gave us showcase fights. So as a fan of his you shouldn’t have expected him to fight Kell Brook in his very next fight after Pacquiao.
Because Floyd has said who “deserved” a fight with him and who didn’t I assume you repeated that and started spewing off resumes. Now that he’s fighting Berto you can’t say Berto deserved the fight more than about 10 guys at the same weight. I get it but don’t be upset. Just stop repeating everything a fighter says to justify a pick of an opponent. You’re not the fighter or part of his team. I assume your friends who you debate with are throwing this stuff up in your face now and you’re frustrated, I get it.
Don’t take this personal but I want you take it. Stop being a fan boy and be an objective observer. Research what you hear and take your emotions out of it. If you did you wouldn’t feel so bad right now. Also stop taking things so personal, boxing is a sport but it’s also a business.
It’s nothing wrong with a defending a fighter if he’s in the right. In fighting Berto there is no right and wrong answer. It’s only a matter of opinion. Where The Mayweather fans go wrong is when they repeat stuff like Amir Khan has Danny Garcia problems. And suggest Khan avenge that loss before he fight Mayweather. If that train of thought is the bible then the Berto fight wouldn’t be happening because he hasn’t avenged his losses. Oh well…But overall it’s not as big as deal as you are making it out to be, you’re being way too emotional. I actually think it will be an entertaining fight while it last.
Send questions to dabreadman25@hotmail.com