By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
The Daily Bread mailbag returns as Stephen Edwards discusses Chris Algieri, Floyd Mayweather vs. Gennady Golovkin, Mayweather vs. Manny Pacquiao, catch-weights, Andre Dirrell vs. James DeGale and more.
What's up Bread? Hope all is blessed with you and yours. I gotta say, your mailbags were always great because you were able to see the small things that the rest of us overlooked. But it's only gotten better because you pick up on small, subtle things that happen outside the ring and in camp. So my question is, do you think Algieri's win over Provodnikov was his moment in the sun? Do you think he could have topped that with the proper matchmaking?
Because, to me it seems like DeGuardia and his handlers have cashed out on him and have thrown him to the wolves. By wolves, I mean Pacquiao and now Khan. Provodnikov was about as stiff a test as you could have faced when up and coming, but to me Algieri was still rising; not just in notoriety but in skill level as well. Really, his legs are his greatest asset but there was a lot more there that just needed to be developed. This guy had the tools to be another Lara, he's just undeveloped. But, they put him in with Pacquiao after a tough decision over RP. He wasn't going to win that fight.
Now they're putting him in with Amir Khan. He isn't going to win this fight and I think he'll get stopped badly, one of those "scary" stoppages. And, it will be all downhill from there. I just don't think it had to be this way. Where are the guys looking out for him?
Bread’s Response: Thank you.
If you notice lots of fighters around Algieri’s talent level or who are with similar level promoters, once they take a loss, they take a few losses in a short period of time. What happens is once the boxing world sees you as “beatable”, they over pay you to come in on the B side and take tough fights. The temptation of the big money is usually too much, especially for the fighter because the fighter wants to erase the taste of the big loss as fast as possible.
Sure Algieri can go back to ESPN. But after making a 7 figure payday against Manny Pacquiao, 20k on ESPN just won’t balance his checkbook out. I get what you are saying and I agree with you. But unless a fighter is with a powerful promoter who has the desire to bring them back slow, then most times it won’t happen.
Strictly on a skill level analysis, I think Algieri is solid but not on Lara’s level. Erislandy Lara has an extensive amateur background. And is about 50/50 with elite level fighters he has faced as far winning rounds. He has never lost overwhelmingly. Algieri lost horribly to an older, past it Manny Pacquiao. Lara wouldn’t lose like that to a fighter of Pacquiao’s current ability.
Back on the business side. Algieri’s promoter are not the biggest on the block. A promoter like that usually does not have the money or desire to reinvest in fighters. At a certain point it’s time to make their money back and see a profit. It’s the rough world of professional boxing. Algieri is being greatly compensated for his still pretty record and marketability. If Khan beats him which I expect him to do, I expect Algieri to get one comeback fight then take on another champion level fighter but this time a younger one than Pacquiao and Khan. A win over Algieri would catapult that younger fighter’s fan base. Good matchmaking can sometimes be cruel to the fighter expected to lose….
Hey Bread,
We always talk about Mayweather or Pacman vs the fabulous 4. It is not quite fair to match Floyd and Manny with top welter weights when their prime years were at smaller weights. I agree with your assessment and you can easily find other great welter weights that would have given challenging matches to them and the fab 4. Why do people rarely ever mention Jose Napoles vs May/Pac/Leonard/Hearns. There were so many good fighters but Jose is Top 10 all time great welter. He was in the wrong era for his weight. My question is people do not talk about how GGG is a big modern (this decade) 160lbs. He is typically bigger, stronger and a better boxer than his opponents. However, I do not believe he will beat top super middleweights like Ward, Degale, or Dirrells (Anthony under estimated Badou). GGG is a very good fighter and can do it all box, bang, defend but I believe the speed and size of super middle weights are to much for him to overcome. He should stay at 160 and continue to dominate, what are your thoughts on that?
Bread’s Response: Oscar De La Hoya and Shane Mosley had great years at lightweight and they get hypothetically matched with welterweights from the past. Floyd Mayweather has been a welterweight for 10 years now and Manny Pacquiao for 7 years. They have both had some of their career best performances at the weight. It’s more than fair to match them with welterweights.
Jose Napoles is a great fighter. People don’t write in about him because great fighters who weren’t superstars often get overlooked if you are not a hardcore boxing guy. I actually talked about Ray Leonard vs Jose Naploes with some boxing minds a few weeks ago. Guys like Napoles, Eder Jofre, Emille Griffith, Fidel Labarba, Eusabio Pedraza etc etc always get overlooked. Napoles would be a handful for both Mayweather and Pacquiao and in multiple fight series I would expect to win at least one vs the dynamic duo.
The biggest jump in boxing is from 160-168. Very few elite fighters at 160 turn out to be just as good at 168. If you look close it has not happened in the last 20 years. The last group of guys who excelled at 160 and equally at 168 was Roy Jones, James Toney, Chris Eubank and Nigel Benn. Those fighter’s primes were 20 years ago. Since then Kelly Pavlik, Jermaine Taylor and Arthur Abraham have all been the standouts who have tried with spotty success. Abraham was undefeated as a 160 pounder. He has incurred all of his career losses at 168. I think weight jumping is special but once you get past 147lbs you have to be truly special and even then weight jumping is not for everybody. Once you get to 160lbs you enter another place for greatness. Think bout that.
It wouldn’t surprise me at all if GGG hits a roadblock at 168 and he starts losing as much as he wins when he gets up there. He’s 33 years old now and he would give up the physicality that makes him a wrecking ball to the middleweights.
Do you consider Willie Monroe a coward for quitting? There seems to be some debate but I heard him say I’m done. A quit is a quit to me. Everyone is giving him props for having so much heart but he quit, I don’t get it. Also do you think GGG carried Monroe and did he show some vulnerability?
Bread’s Response: My twitter timeline was blowing up from a series of views. At first I didn’t hear him say I’m done. I thought the referee just made a determination that he couldn’t continue. When I read people tweeting that he quit, I was even more confused. Then I saw a post fight interview where Monroe said that they would have to carry him out of the ring to beat him. So I became even more confused than I already was. The very next day I watched the fight again closely and it does appear that he said I’m done.
The Q word is the forbidden word in boxing and no one wants to be associated with that word. Here is where I will go deep and try to give an objective take on this. I don’t consider Willie Monroe a coward. A coward is not a label you put on the kid who stepped up to fight a monster that quite frankly more privileged fighters get to avoid at all cost. A coward is not a label you put on a kid who came back from the 2nd round onslaught to fight hard get his pound of flesh in. I simply think he had enough and he wasn’t wiling to die in the ring. That’s a little different from being coward.
Technically yes he did quit but to me a quit is not a quit. It’s like someone saying a crime is a crime. Shoplifting a few packs of gum is not the same as robbing a bank. It doesn’t carry the same penalty if found guilty and it’s simply not the same. I have seen great fighters like Erik Morales vs Manny Pacquiao and Alexis Arguello vs Aaron Pryor sit on the floor after knockdowns fully conscious but allow themselves to be counted out because they simply had enough, I never considered them quitters.
Roberto Duran who did the most famous quit job ever, is as gutsy a fighter as I have ever seen. Duran who is comparable to size as Mayweather and Pacquiao jumped in weight to fight the biggest and arguably best junior middleweight ever in Tommy Hearns. The roughest middleweight of the last 40 years in Marvin Hagler. And the biggest middleweight I have ever seen in Iran Barkley. That is not the act of a coward. I’m not giving a Duran a pass for quitting against Ray Leonard in their 2nd fight, I’m just stating I don’t believe he’s a coward. I just think his emotions got the better of him on that night and he packed it in mentally. It's important to judge things individually and not put broad labels on them.
Now you have cases like Victor Ortiz and Acelino Freitas who simply quit under duress in fights they are competitive in. You also have guys who try to be disingenuous and quit in ways where they try to deceive us. They tell the doctor or ref the wrong number of fingers when asked, they start blinking hard to make it seem like they can’t see. They wait until the referee is about to say 10 during the count knowing they will get counted out. In this era these guys have become really creative. That’ s a pet peeve of mine.
I won’t label Willie Monroe how I will label a kid like Victor Ortiz. I will just say he surrendered and he gave it all he had. Let’s see how the rest of his career plays out.... However, The one thing I will say is that Monroe was slightly disingenuous in his post fight interviews when he claimed they would have to carry him out of the ring.
No GGG didn’t carry Monroe. He tried to finish him in round 2. He just wasn’t able to. GGG has charisma his English may be poor but he knows how to get the public worked up. He wasn’t able to finish Monroe until the 6th. That’s just the truth. So he finessed our emotions a little bit. No biggie.
I don’t believe GGG showed any more vulnerability than he already has shown. He’s not a defensive specialist we all know that. I have always felt that that a fighter who pushes him back will have more success than going away. He cuts the ring off too good and he gets great extension on his punches. If you can smother is attack and push him back you have a better chance. The Kasim Ouma fight should not be overlooked. I also thinks he gets a little tired at certain points because he swings for lots of homeruns. I still think he’s a great fighter in the making and a top 10 p4p fighter currently. The one thing GGG has to be aware of is fighting for the crowd too much. He abandoned his jab too much in this fight and he started loaded up. His jab is his best and most underrated weapon. Against another great fighter like Andre Ward he can’t abandon his jab. As of now I pick Ward to beat him convincingly and I predict most will be upset at the outcome because the more exciting and more marketed fighter will lose comprehensively. Mark that down.
You seem to give Mayweather a pass for not stepping up to fight GGG. If GGG came to 154 I don’t get how he gets a pass. Roberto Duran fought Iran Barkley who was 6’1 and moved up to cruiserweight late in his career. Who wins if Mayweather vs GGG fight at 154?
Bread’s Response: Someone put the Duran comparison on Facebook and now everyone is running with it. Look I’m not willing to say Floyd is ducking a man who is not in his division. GGG is a middleweight, Floyd is the junior middleweight and welterweight king. Floyd has already moved up 5 weight classes I’m not going to give the guy grief if he doesn’t want to go up 6. Everyone has a limit and Floyd struggles at 154.
Now get don’t me wrong if Floyd did challenge GGG I would love it. I would buy a ticket. He would get major props. All time gun status. But I’m not going to condemn him just because he won’t do it. And for the record I’m tired of hearing about GGG at 154. If he could make 154 he would make it. 154 is where the big fights are for him anyway.
As for who would win, GGG is too big for Floyd. Floyd would give up too much ground and GGG is overwhelming when you move away. He would hit Floyd on his hips, forearms just everywhere. Even if Floyd didn’t get stopped I don’t think the judges would award him rounds because he would have to be on his bike way too much to survive.
Who is your pick in the Dirrell vs Degale? I really can’t call that one. I need you to push me one way or the other. I also want to know why Manny used to get so much crap for fighting catchweight fights but now everyone else does it. Porter vs Broner is at a catchweight. Did Manny start a trend and who has the advantage the fighter coming down or the fighter going up?
Bread’s Response: Direll vs Degale is a great technical fight. I’m leaning Direll. I just think his punches will be more judge friendly and eye catching but I am no where near sure. Degale has improved since the George Groves fight and he’s in a groove. Twisting my arm, Direll by MD in a close good fight.
Pacquioa’s PR team allowed him to be called the catchweight king. Shame on them. One of the fights he was getting flack for was the De La Hoya fight in which he was the underdog in. That fight was not at a catchweight. It was at 147 which is an original weight limit. Manny was moving up from 135 and Oscar was coming down from 154. Ironically it was Oscar who fought at a catchweight in his previous fight vs Steve Forbes at 150. That is the perfect example of people running with something and repeating a myth. Herd Theory.
No Manny didn’t start a trend. Catchweights have been around forever. But I will just talk about the catchweights of the last few years.
Jermaine Taylor lost to Kelly Pavlik at 160 for the middleweight title. In their immediate rematch they fought at 164 in a non title. It was Taylor who wanted the catchweight. Pavlik won the rematch also.
Bernard Hopkins fought Kelly Pavlik and Winky Wright at catchweights of 170lbs. Both Wright and Pavlik were middleweights. 10 pounds is a big jump. Ironically Wright and Pavlik were both favorites to beat Hopkins and Hopkins won both fights.
Hopkins also was made to come to 156 to fight Oscar De La Hoya. The lowest he had ever come in in his entire career. Hopkins won that fight also.
Paul Williams fought Sergio Martinez at 157lbs in their rematch. Williams asked for the catchweight. Martinez won the fight. Martinez was the middleweight champion.
Miguel Cotto fought Manny Pacquiao at 145lbs. He fought Antonio Margarito at 153lbs and Sergio Martinez at 159lbs. Cotto lost to Pacquiao but he beat Martinez and Margarito. All were catchweight fights.
Roy Jones and Felix Trinidad fought at 169lbs. and Jones won the fight.
JM Marquez signed to fight Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao at 144lbs. He loss both fights. Mayweather came in albs over on Marquez.
Floyd Mayweather fought Canelo Alvarez at 152 and Marquez at 144. Mayweather won both fights.
Manny Pacquiao fought Miguel Cotto at 145, Antonio Margarito at 150, Chris Algieri at 144 and Marquez at 144. He won all of the catchweight fights.
Danny Garcia has recently fought Rod Salka at 142 and Lamont Peterson at 143. Garcia won both of his catchweight fights.
I’m so glad you asked me about catchweights. Now you see that Manny didn’t start a trend. Most of the top A side guys who wanted big fights with guys not in their weight classes made catchweight fights. You will also see that in some of the instances the bigger fighter had the advantage. He got to rehydrate up and use his physicality. In other instances the smaller man won, when the bigger fighter came down. Critics favorite position is that of Monday Morning QB, they can’t lose. They will wait until the outcome to declare who had the advantage, when in reality it goes on a case by case basis.
Again I will repeat this. Three magic rules in boxing. Respect everyone. Be an independent thinker. Never repeat opinion as truth without research.
What do you think of Thomas Hauser’s story? Is he the guy who wrote Ali’s biography?
Bread’s Response: Thomas Hauser is the standard bearer when it comes to sports writing. Thomas Hauser writes credible stories where he seems to do his due diligence and not just depend on rumors and tips. I really respect Mr. Hauser.
Send questions and comments to dabreadman25@hotmail.com