by Stephen "Breadman" Edwards

The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards discussing topics such as the Luis Ortiz failing a drug test for Deontay Wilder, the career of Floyd Mayweather Jr., the great Joe Louis, Daniel Jacobs joining Eddie Hearn and facing Luis Arias, and more.

Please share your thoughts on the following basic current topics.

Do you think Jacobs vs Saunders happens? If so, how do you envision the results?

Do you foresee Jacobs vs Arias being competitive?

Do you think Crawford vs Thurman happens in 2018? If so, can Thurman compete with Bud?

On a scale from 1 to 10, where do you rank the possibility of a Danny Garcia vs E Spence or Crawford bout? I'm anticipating your response to be minus 1?

I appreciate your feedback very much!

Curtis/Cincy

Bread’s Response: No I don’t think Jacobs vs Saunders will happen. At least not in the foreseeable future.

Yes I think Arias will be competitive but I think Jacobs will win. How many American undefeated prospects don’t fight hard in their first big fight? Most win their fare share of rounds. I expect Arias to be live. But I think Jacobs is too athletic and too hard of a puncher.

Thurman can compete with anyone. He’s the real deal. And despite his layoffs he always comes back sharp. No I don’t think they fight in 2018.

I think Danny Garcia will fight Errol Spence before he fights Terence Crawford. I don’t know if either happens for a very long time. It’s just how boxing works these days. Hopefully I’m wrong. All scenarios are great fights. Especially Garcia vs Spence. That’ s high contact bump. On a scale of 1-10 let’s say a 4.

Whatsup Bread, I’ve been watching some Joe Louis footage like you suggested a few weeks ago and all I can say is Wow. He almost never compromised his fundamentals and he was so well balanced that he could call upon any punch from virtually any position. He could dip in, slip a jab or move backwards throwing uppercuts with perfect balance. Everybody talks about his right hand but his left hook was devastating as well. He knocked Max Baer out with three left hooks in a row. His lack of dynamic footwork was his weakness though.

Anyway, my question:

Louis vs Ali

Louis vs Liston

How do you think would these fights play out?

Bread’s Response: Joe Louis had every punch in the book. His jab was money, his uppercut was just as good, and his hook was as good as his right hand. That’s why he’s the best puncher ever.

His footwork was perfect for his style. He refused to be rushed or hurried out of punching position.

I think Ali is the best heavyweight ever.  On his best night I think he outpoints Louis. But in a 3 fights series I think Louis wins at least 1. He’s the best rematch fighter ever. And Doug Jones and Ken Norton both gave Ali fits. They both jabbed with Ali. Louis was unreal at jabbing with opponents.

Liston is so underrated it’s sad. He could have been the best heavyweight of the 50s but was never able to prove it. He was ducked so long that his reign was ended early because he ventured into the Ali era. He got a title shot 5 years too late, which is criminal. Liston would pose plenty of problems for Louis but Louis was the twitchier fight. I say he hits Liston with a shot he never sees and kos him. Joe Louis was a bad man bro. They were both bad men.

Hi Bread,

With all the talk lately of the judging surrounding the GGG / Canelo and Parker / Fury fights can you open up on what judges should be looking for when scoring a fight? Is it purely subjective for each judge and their personnel opinion when say scoring aggression vs countering or volume vs power, let alone defensive prowess and is anything clearly defined. I've come from a Muay Thai background and have taken an interest in boxing as well and I sometimes struggle with certain scoring. I understand there is a lot to it, but some more insight would be great as everyone has a different opinion and read of a fight.

Keep up the great work,

James

Bread’s Response: Scoring a fight is based on 4 things. Effective Aggressiveness, Clean Punching, Ring Generalship and Defense. Everything is clearly defined by it’s title except Ring Generalship. The ring general is the fighter who is dictating the mood and terms of the fight.

People make up their own criterion on how they score fights and nothing bugs me more. From “I like the guy coming forward.” Or “You have to take the title from the champion.” Whatever that bulls$%# means.

So when you are watching a fight watch for the fighter who is landing the cleaner shots more often. Then observe to who is dictating what type of fight is happening. Then look for who is displaying defensive prowess. And also look for who is being aggressive but landing punches while being aggressive.  Some of it is subjective but Clean punching is a constant. A clean punch landed should not be subjective. It’s a provable occurrence.

Then one must realize a boxing match is not a big 36 minute fight. It’s 12 separate rounds. A good round does not carry over to the next.  The 1st round is just as important as the last.

Lastly practice scoring a big fight. Write your scores down and compare it to official scorecards. See how close you are to the actual scoring.

Whats going on bread. With Andre Ward's recent retirement, where do you rank him on the all time list p4p list as well as alltime 168lb? Along with Ward, do you think this will be the best hall of fame class of all time? You have Ward, Mayweather jr, Mosley, Marquez, Klitschko, Hopkins, Bradley, Cotto. Do you feel Dawson, Guerrero, and Uchiyama get in? Including the fringe contenders how do you rate each 1 of these guys careers? Ward missed stevenson, bute and the dirrell brothers, Floyd missed Casamayor,freitas, stevie johnston, Tszyu, paul williams, margarito and bradley. Mosley missed johnston, manfredy, spinks,judah, berto, paul williams,and clotthey. marquez missed guzman, campbell, morales, rios, khan, alexander, valero, maidana,and judah. Klitschko missed lewis, tyson, holyfield, toney, ruiz, valuev and wilder. Hopkins missed a early abramham and miranda, stevenson and ward. Bradley missed khan, maidana, judah, alvarado, malignaggi,and mayweather, Cotto missed hatton, tszyu, mitchell, gatti, berto, paul williams,lee,  ggg and lara. How do there misses effect there ranking and who do you think has the most career defining misses?

Bread’s Response: Andre Ward was some fighter. I think he is among the best 100 fighters ever. He ranks around the same place of say of an Aaron Pryor or Michael Spinks. Ward is one of the 10 greatest fighters ever with 40 or less fights.

I rank Ward in the top 4 ever at 168lbs along with Roy Jones, Joe Calzaghe and James Toney.

The class you listed will be a great class but I have to research all of the other classes before I say if it’s the best class ever. One thing I will say is a few great fighters won’t get in on the 1st ballot.

No I don’t feel Dawson, Guerrero or Uchiyama will get in. Out of the 3 Uchiyama has the best chance and had the highest peak.

Tough question it’s hard to say. But you can’t just look at boxrec and see who was fighting during same time and start listing guys that missed. It’s more complicated than that. Availability and viability have to be considered. The reason why the question is tough is because a fighter like Cotto missed GGG. That doesn’t hurt his career standing because GGG would have seriously hurt Cotto had he not avoided him. Historians for some reason don’t give Cotto too much flack for it so…So going through each person is too tedious.

I know you’re a big sports fan in general. What do you make of the NFL protest, agree or disagree? What do you make of the black athletes who are pro Trump like Floyd Mayweather and Ray Lewis? And could a peaceful protest be done in boxing?

Bread’s Response: I support all peaceful protest. I don’t have a problem with NFL or NBA players. You know Muhammad Ali is my guy. So of course I don’t have a problem with it.

I guess something could be done in boxing but boxing is not a team sport. But I have seen boxers wear “I Can’t Breath” shirts and other things for social symbolism. So yes boxers have shown social awareness and could continue to do so with messages on their robes or trunks.

I see Danny Jacobs left Al Haymon’s plantation. Good for him. Doors will open up for him on HBO and with Eddie Hearn. I don’t get why so many boxers actually believed they didn’t need promoters. Do you think this will be a trend?

Bread’s Response: First off, I don’t like the word plantation.

What makes you think Danny Jacobs left Al Haymon?  Haymon may have helped him work out the terms of the deal. I agree that doors will open up for Jacobs but you may be wrong about him leaving Haymon. For the record I think Eddie Hearn is the best promoter in boxing. So good for Jacobs.

Yes I think this will start a trend.

The reason why so many fighters were operating without a promoter is because Floyd Mayweather skyrocketed without a promoter under Haymon’s guidance. So many others followed. On top of that fighters were making more money on the license fees because promoters were not taking those big cuts of the monies.

There is no exact blueprint because every fighter is different. Some need promoters. Some promote themselves. Some get favorable treatment from the powers that be. Some need individual treatment from a promoter who cares for them. Timing, stable, network affiliation and individual fighter traits all play a part.

Right now with HBO losing Top Rank and not having access to a lot of the PBC stable. Jacobs should get some huge fights and plenty of exposure and opportunity.

What do you think of the big Junior Middleweight card in Brooklyn? I am confused as to who will be in the main event. It seems like it’s Lara vs Gausha but no way should it be main event over Charlo vs Lubin. Lubin is much better than Gausha and Charlo is much more exciting than Lara. Lara will beat Gausha by easy decision and bore every one as usual. I can’t call Charlo vs Lubin, that’s a great fight.

Bread’s Response: I think it’s a great card. I know everyone is looking forward to Charlo vs Lubin the most but I think Lara vs Gausha will be the main event.

I don’t think Lara wins an easy decision vs Terrell Gausha. I know Gausha has not been setting the world on fire as a prospect but he can fight. Sometimes well rounded guys do better once they step up in competition and because they aren’t dynamic offensively they don’t look as fire in the showcase prospect stage. We just saw it with Felix Diaz.

How often do you see an undefeated American prospect get their 1st big fight and don’t win rounds or fight extremely hard? I think Gausha will win between 4-6 rounds.

For as excellent a fighter as Lara is, he’s not a dominant fighter. He doesn’t put on 12 round shut outs like fellow southpaws Pernell Whitaker, Vasyl Lomachenko and Guillermo Rigondeaux. If you look at Lara’s record close against his more lively opponents he wins about 60% of the rounds. Check out the scores in his fights vs Vanes Martirosyan, Carlos Molina, Freddy Hernandez and Alfredo Angulo. All of those guys were able to win about 40% of the rounds against Lara. Lara for some reason does not fight to dominate. He fights to control. He pretty much throws two punches a jab and a hard left hand and he uses his feet as his defense. He throws between 30-40 punches/round and he doesn’t punch in attack combination. So you won’t see him win 12 round shut outs vs elite level guys.

Gausha is on par with those fighters I mentioned in my opinion. I think Gausha’s one drawback is he seems caught in between styles. He’s evolved into a technical boxer and I’m not sure with his pace he can fight Lara like that and win. So I’m not picking him to win. But I do think he will hold his own and we may get some controversy.

Charlo vs Lubin is a hardcore fans dream. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Lubin wins. He has the faster hands, was a better amateur and he’s a southpaw so it could negate Charlo’s best punch, his jab. But I think Charlo is the puncher in the fight, I think he’s stronger and he’s really riding high under Derrick James who is an excellent trainer. Charlo is also sparring a killer southpaw in Errol Spence. I think this will be a war and if you twist my arm I say Charlo wins.

Hurd vs Trout is a tough fight to pick for me. I think Trout has a real chance at the upset. I think Hurd can be counter punched. I also think Hurd is one of the those fighters who is better when you lay on the inside with him. Trout can step around away from Hurd’s best punch a right uppercut. Hurd has really long arms but sometimes he looks gangly punching in the mid range although he does have a midrange and inside game. He’s actually good in there considering he’s tall. But I think Trout could be more efficient and he may be faster. My gut tells me Trout in the upset but this is a 50/50 fight.

Bmac response-Part 1

I never ONCE said that your assessment of Floyd Mayweather as an all time great fighter has anything  to do with him being black. Yes I do go in a little strong but you were off base my friend. My annoyance was that nobody with ant credibility has gone on the record and admitted that Floyd has in fact lost 2 fights. And no this nas got nothing to do with race. you completely misunderstood me on that point.

Again, show me where I posted anything this " Are you that upset about me saying Floyd is an All Time Great Fighter? The answer is nowhere.

For the record I have Floyd as an ATG, we just got there by different methods. I even posted that fact in my above email.

Lennox Lewis got a bogus draw in Holyfield I. I bet you that result bothers him to this day. Fighters are some of the proudest  boxers you will me and Leonard-Hagler might go through the obligatory handshakes and hugs when they are at a mutual event but  they still hate each other 30 years on from there infamous battle.

Lewis got sparked out by McCall and Rahman so while they beat every man they faced that same very man KTFO of both which tarnished there legacies no matter what way you look at it.

KO power is only relative to you’re hitting. It’s really something to think about.  At welterweight I think Pac has lost his extra gear. He had a gear that he could snap into and really drop water on the concrete to crack it. He doesn’t have that gear anymore. When he had Jeff Horn hurt he got tired. The old Pac would have stopped Horn in that 9th round. So maybe it’s lack of PEDs. Maybe he’s old. Maybe it’s both.

???That right there  is an insinuation bro.

Insinuation: implication, inference, suggestion, hint, intimation, imputation, innuendo, reference, allusion, indication, undertone, overtone;  aspersion, slur, allegation

And yes since delusional fans and media members who even have the stones to compare Mayweather to Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, Duran, SRR, Homicide Hank, Sam Langford, Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Harry Greb, Ali, Gans, Benny Leonard, Louis, Barney Ross, Ketchel, Monzon, Ricardo Lopez, Hopkins, RJJ, Wilfred Benitez, Freddie Welsh,  Ad Wolgast, Jimmy Wilde. I'll leave it at that. A lot more consideration needs to be taken into place when anointing an ATG, which of course is subjective. Can'y forget Saddler/Pep.

AS you know Robinson fought the wrong fight that night and pummeled away at Maxim until the end of the 13th. He had the fight one but he couldn't handle the heat. Joey pretty much let him do whatever he wanted taking a gamble that  he would burn himself out. It worked. The 115 degrees was too just much in the end that night for Sugar.

Watching back on Youtube it's painful to watch.

I'm assuming that it matters what conditions these HOF  were actually in?

-Cotto was three fights removed from the worst beating he ever took in his life II'm leaving out the last few Margarito) as that pales in comparison to what Pac did to him. He forced him out of an entire division because he had nowhere to go.

-He fought a useless Youri Forman

-A washed up Mayorga

-And a one-eyed Margarito who nobody wanted to sanction fight week

-The Mayweather in which he gave a decent account of himself given the previous circumstances.

Marquez

-Who got completely f***ed on the scales.

-The fight was a joke

Hatton

-Collazo fought Hatton in Boston NOt at his comfortable fighting weight of 147 and was basically handed a gift.

-He too care of the remains of Castillo and some Mayweather was up next.

-I do give Floyd some credit because aside from the referee ruining the fight it was a top performance from Floyd, again 147 was not his true fighting weight.

Mosley was an aging fighter (fights wise) but I do commend Floyd for taking the fight after Shane smashed Margarito to pieces.

Oscar

-Floyd had a somewhat close fight with DHLH until he threw the fight away by confusing himself by which punches he wanted to throw to head and body, he blew the whole fight with his jab.

Anyway okay performance from Floyd.

Manny Pacquiao.

-The fight that should have took place at least 5 years too late, both fighters post prime, the fight was a stinker with some shady sh*t going on and the timing of this fight should hold about as much relevance as a Newspaper Decision back in the 1900's. The only credit Floyd gets is that he "won" with a massive * next to that fight.

Gatti.

-Was an over the hill human-punch bag when Floyd fought him after those three brutal fights with Mikey Ward. How can I give him any credit for this? And furthermore most people think that Gatti was inducted into the HOF because of his popularity, not his boxing achievements. It's open for debate but on thin ice, as one man pointed out to me "If there was an emotional HOF Gatti would be the first one inducted" He's not the only one that slipped by the radar but there are a few who have done nothing to be in the prestigious HOF, McGuigan being one of them.

Credit for:

-Mosley

-Oscar

-Hatton (lesser extent)

-Marquez (none)

-Gatti  (none)

-Cotto (some)

-Pac (joke)

So it's a mixed bag,a lot of factors to be considered.

I'm not ignoring that condition aside when he fought them I'll give you;

Cotto, De La Hoya, Mosley, Marquez, Pacquiao and Gatti

No one can accuse these of being Murder's row when Floyd fought them but yes ALL these men end up in the HOF.

So yes I'll give you these HOF some with an * attached, still they are going in.

And yes he did avenge his two defeats in style. Castillo 2 was pretty competitive but Maidana 2 he could the beatdown all night.

Corrales was an excellent. The two pound he had to shift might have something to do with it but Floyd was ON that night.

What will make me happy is simply.

1 Give Floyd his rightful place as an ATG, I can live with 20-30

2.Stop all this nonsense (not you) that he is top 10, that's a disgrace to hardened ATG's that have stood the test of time.

3.Stop pretending that he doesn't have the most misses in recent history

4.Don't forget his "vacations" while other top boxers were beating the sh*t out of each other.

I'll re-check out Floyd' earlier career in the interests of fairness and then I'm moving on.

So we agree/disagree on some issues  in a respectful manner brother.

Blessings to you and you family as always!

Bmac

Bread’s Response: I gave you a platform my good brother because I try to be fair. From here on out let’s try to keep the comments shorter. Maybe 1000 characters.

I can’t get into all of your points because I would be typing all day. But I will address a few.

You forgot the question in the leading up to my Pacquiao comment. I was asked was his sudden drop off in kos due to lack of PEDs. So that’s why I answered that way. But for the record Pacquiao started taking VADA in 2013 and put out some really good performances. So I for one give his earlier career success validity. I thought he cleanly beat a HOF level guy in Tim Bradley while doing VADA.

As for Floyd. Anyone can nitpick a resume. I never said he faced Murderer’s Row. I know some of the guys were past it and some of the fights were showcase fights. I also know it’s more champions available to fight in this era. But he’s still a special fighter. He still has to perform and win on fight night. He still has limited his bad nights, to less than 99% of the greats of the past. He’s still a HOF. If top 100 ever makes you an all time great. And if we agree that Floyd somewhere around top 25, what’s the argument? Are we arguing how he got to the point? Seriously I want to know in your next comment.

Wow! You really called Wilder vs Ortiz. To quote you, if they do VADA testing I like Wilder big. What do you make of the positive test and do you believe it was blood pressure medicine? Every cheater always says they were using the drugs for something different.

Bread’s Response: When Luis Ortiz stopped Lateef Kayode in 1 round a few years ago and the fight was overturned because he had tested positive it always bothered me. No one remembered that the result didn’t actually count. Poor Kayode.

I strongly feel a cheater doesn’t have the same confidence without whatever he was cheating with. I also believe that Wilder is confident while doing the most stringent testing in boxing. So Wilder was my pick.

I don’t know what Ortiz was taking. And we need to wait until the B sample results come in to fully realize what was going on. What I will say is that most banned PEDs have dual medical uses. So it could have been blood pressure medicine. But that’s why there are investigations. I also know if you are a good cheater, you will need a good excuse. So it’s smart to use something that has dual usage. I also know, no cheater has ever been caught and said yes I was trying to get away with cheating discreetly. So let’s see how it plays out.

Two more things. For the critics who attack Wilder’s resume, please take a seat. He has tried to make two really tough fights on paper and both guys have tested positive. The attack should be on the fighters who are taking banned substances and preventing these fights from happening.

I also believe that Wilder should take out an insurance policy that will pay him in case fights fall through like this. If he keeps testing these fighters they will keep testing positive. This will not be the last time this happens to Wilder.

Whats up Bradman

I wrote in about a week ago to ask you who you thought would win with Deontay Wilder vs Luis Ortiz.  In your prediction you mentioned PEDs being a factor.  Good call on that lol.  I’m a big fan of Wilder and I hate to see him have to deal with these fighters.  I want to see him in a big fight.  I was thinking that when you fail a drug test it maybe should be considered a loss on your Boxrec record.  If you sign the contract and the fight doesn’t go on because of a failed drug test or in some cases maybe even being off weight if it is severe enough it should be a loss. 

Luis Ortiz is 27-0 he would be 26-2 if you did this and made the no contest into a loss.  It would be that much easier to look at who got caught.  Povetkin would also have 2 more losses from Stiverne and Wilder. I think a no contest or not recording it is sort of brushing it under the rug.  Dirty fighter would be punished and lose stock and clean fighters would be rewarded.  It seems clear no one will be banned for life or for a significant amount of time in boxing, so at least the big red ‘L’ could be some incentive for people who are so desperate to win to not cheat.  Was hoping to see what you thought about this idea.  Thanks for your time, keep up the good work!

Bread’s Response: I definitely believe that Wilder beats a “clean” Ortiz. But to be fair to Ortiz we have to let the investigation play out. It seems that the substance that he tested positive for was not listed on the banned list in the designer name. It was listed on the banned list in the generic name.

In layman’s terms let’s say Ibuprofen is on the banned list. But you take something that has motrin listed in the ingredients and not ibuprofen. Then you pop up positive for ibuprofen. A boxer may not know the difference in a generic and designer name.

I am in no way taking up for Ortiz. But if this is the case then intent on the blood pressure medicine should be considered. A skeptic can also say he was using these meds to mask his cheating and he had this ready made excuse ready just in case he was caught.

The one thing that can not be argued is that Ortiz and his team did not declare the blood pressure medicine to VADA. That is 100% their fault and it’s no excuse for not declaring the medication.

It will be interesting at how this plays out.

Bread,

How long do you think Wilder could go making a living just making his would-be opponents do VADA tests and suing them for the purse after they fail??  If I was him maybe I'd just work the system by continuing to pick opponents that are likely using PED's and never have to fight since apparently the entire HW division is on something other than him!  This is getting ridiculous!

-Nathan from VA

Bread’s Response: Wilder is doing exactly what he should be doing. And that is being proactive in drug testing. The reason why he can be proactive and go after the cheaters is because he is clean. And when you’re clean you act different. You talk openly about cheaters. You don’t cherry pick the test and make certain opponents test and others not test. I told you guys you can tell the cheaters not by what they do but what they don’t do.

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