The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling topics such as Gervonta Davis, Edwin Valero, Demetrius Andrade, Jaime Munguia, Roman "Chocolatito" Gonzalez, and more.
Ssup Bread,
You made a very interesting but correct point in your last mailbag about a boxer's legacy getting fully acknowledged a few decades after he retires. Ali wasn't considered in top 5 by Nat Fleischer in the early 70s. Harry Greb's legacy has improved greatly. Another interesting and a very correct point you mentioned was about modern analytics. Boxrec does the same and rates Floyd as Number 1 in their all-time P4P rankings. As time goes by people start forgetting about the greatness of a lot fighters, they will rely more and more on Boxrec type analytics.
I don't think Floyd will be considered number 1 because at least some people will put in the research and watch old fight videos that are rather easily available on YouTube but I can definitely see his legacy enhancing quite a bit. I personally have him in my top 10 list. I can fully see that in a few decades people will start considering Floyd a consensus top 5 fighter above the likes Leonard, Duran, Langford and Greb and below SRR, Ali and Armstrong. Some will suffer due to non-availability of videos and others will suffer due to modern analytics that does not recognize the difference between beating a prime Hearns and a past his prime Oscar De La Hoya. Who are we kidding, I seriously doubt that with boxing's current format, we will see an all-time top 10 fighter emerge in next 30 years. It's just that existing list that might reshuffle due to reevaluation of legacies. If you were to make an educated guess, how do you think the top 10 list will look like in another 30 years?
Regards,
Saurabh
Bread’s Response: In 2052 I think the current top 10 ATG P4P will change slightly but not too much. I can’t tell you who will be in it and who won’t because 30 years is too long of a time. We will have gone through 3 eras in 30 years. Everyone currently fighting will be done. So that’s too tough of a question. I literally don’t have a way of answering it.
What I can say is, there are several young fighters currently who have shots at being super special. And there are established current fighters who have shots at ATG top 10 legacies.
If Usyk beats Fury, Joyce and Wilder the conversation about him is different. He would most likely be the fighter of the decade of the 2020s if he did that. Although it wouldn’t have been at Cruiserweight but his legacy there would increase, because hypothetically he becomes harder for Holyfield to beat. And he would be in the argument for being a top 5 heavyweight ever, maybe higher. Imagine Usyk retiring undefeated with that resume…
If Monster Inoue unifies at 118. Then unifies at 122lb and wins a big fight or 2 at 126lb with the same destruction he’s shown at the lower weights without taking any bad losses, the conversation about him his different.
If Boots Ennis gets his shot at 147 and unifies. Then unifies at 154. Then unifies at 160 and passes with the same eyeball test he’s displayed as a rising contender. Just imagine how he would be viewed.
If Shakur Stevenson wins titles at 135, 140 and 147 to go along with his titles at 126 and 130 and remains as untouchable as he’s been. Again imagine how he would be viewed.
This next decade will be fun.
Yo Bread first time writer, but longtime reader! I come from a family of fight fans and as you can imagine, each uncle-cousin-brother has their favorite fighter and favorite era. We were stacking up Canelo’s run at 168 vs the others of the relatively young divisions all time greats. Andre Ward, Roy Jones and Joe Calzaghe. Who in your opinion had the best run and should be considered the goat at Super Middleweight. And my apologies, I know a lot of those fights bled into 175 as well. Thanks and we’d love to see a certain somebody make a run at this division great history.
Regards and happy holidays, -Nate
Bread’s Response: I believe firmly that Canelo is a top 5 Super Middleweight Ever. I think his run at 168 has been on the level of all of the greats. Plus he’s seemed to peak out at 168.
I believe Roy Jones is the best fighter I’ve ever seen at 168lbs. He also has the best win vs a prime James Toney who was #2 P4P and 44-0 when he beat him. I think Andre Ward winning a tournament that with minimum matchmaking, is one of the biggest accomplishments in division history. Joe Calzaghe had the longest title reign and most defenses. And despite his critics, some of his title defenses were quality and real. No one has 20 Grade A title defenses. No one.
My top 5 Super Middleweights of All Time:1) Roy Jones 2a) Joe Calzaghe. 3b) Andre Ward. 4) James Toney 5) Canelo Alvarez. Ward could be #2 and Toney could be #3. I would have to do some research and really crunch numbers. But right now without doing a forensic research that’s my ranking.
Blessings to you and yours Bread. As good as the 135lb division is with all those well known names I think the 140lb division is just going to produce better fights. There’s some young hungry guys coming up and with the top guys at the division not being huge names I get the feeling fights will get made. With all that being said what are your thoughts on Subriel Matias? Not sure if you’ve had a chance to watch much of him but I get the sense he’s the one guy most top fighters in the division will want to avoid. Thanks.
Bread’s Response: I agree with you. The Junior Middleweight (154lbs) division over the last half of decade or so, has had exactly what you speak of for 140lbs. The division didn’t have a Superstar, so all of the top guys were made to fight and they did. The media didn’t appreciate it and they criticized the fighters for losing but there was parody. Most were in their primes and unless one was an ATG fighter, then they would take losses. It was an underrated era at 154lbs.
The same can be said at 140lbs as long as you don’t have A side Super Stars with undefeated records. If you have that, then you won’t get the fights. But if you get just top champions and no Super Stars, then you will. I know it’s sounds like an enigma, but that’s how you get top fights in boxing for the most part. Especially in this era. Fighters are willing to fight in order to get Superstar status. But if they get anointed the status without taking 50/50 fights then they won’t.
Dear Bread,
I hope all is well on your side, both professionally and personally. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read Mungaia's people rejected the opportunity to fight Janibek for the 2nd time. Here's a kid who quit the 154-division where he was actually a world champ, to move to middleweight only for him to fight journeymen and guys camping in the top 10 - 20. During every single post-fight interview, he says he wants to fight for a world title, but never does so. After his last fight in November, he calls out GGG and Jermall. GGG has a mandatory defense coming up. Jermall is still recovering from his injury and may have a mandatory challenger to go through as well. Why not enforce his mandatory status against Janibek? It's mindboggling to me. If he wins, he's a champ and can maybe entice Jermall or GGG to fight him. It makes it worth their while because it would be a unification bout. But for him and his people to believe they'll just fight him like that, is very arrogant and entitled. Do they really think he's the A-side in a fight with GGG / Jermall?
I'm even doubting whether Mungaia or his people are really confident about his abilities. It's like they only wanna fight their choice of opponent, and if those guys have something else going on, he'll just continue fighting subpar competition, and I say this with regard to his own standing and ability, not to be disrespectful to his competition. Imagine if all fighters behaved like this. The sport would be in a very bad place, and I hope they don't succeed in their ploy because this could lead to more fighters behaving like this. Besides this, very good fight again between Estrada and Chocolatito. Estrada got off to a hot start. It was his jab and left body hook that prevented Gonzalez getting into his offensive rhythm. Banking those early rounds is what won him the fight 7-5 on my card.
Chocolatito turned into an animal during the 2nd half of the fight, and hats off to his trainer for making him go there. As early as the end of round 2, he was telling a hard truth to Gonzalez. Even though he's one of my favorites to watch, I hope Gonzalez retires. He's got nothing left to prove: world titles in 4 different weight classes, 20+ championship fights, the greatest lower weight class fighter of this century. He made a great last stand here and I hope he rides off into the sunset with his marbles intact because I don't know how much more he can give or take. Thanks again for sharing your insights.
Chris from Belgium
Bread’s Response: I don’t know why I’m so sympathetic towards Chocolatito. I’ve never met him. I don’t know him from a can of paint. But I feel like he’s been one of the most misfortunate fighters in history. I thought he beat SSR in their first fight with a historic late round push. He loses the decision. His trainer dies and he walks into a KO in the rematch. It was almost as if his spirit was gone in the rematch. So that’s 2 losses on his record when , if he would’ve won the 1st match then most likely no rematch with SSR, especially under the circumstances of his trainer dying.
Then he comes back and goes on a tear. He wins another title as the underdog. He fights the fight of his life in a rematch with Estrada and gets shafted. Very few people I know scored the 2nd fight for Estrada. So now Choc has 3 losses. He accepts a trilogy in a series he should be 2-0 in but is 1-1. Estrada fights a great fight in the trilogy fight. Gets off to a great start. Choc storms back but Estrada edges the fight. Now Estrada is 2-1 in a series he should be in 0-2 in.
I have no issue with Estrada winning the trilogy fight although I do think he’s gotten the benefit of swing rounds in the last 2 fights. I thought Choc won rounds 3, 9 and 11 which are the rounds of controversy in the trilogy fight.
My issue is Estrada shouldn’t have even had a chance to win a trilogy when it’s a consensus opinion he lost the 1st two fights. Choc should retire in my opinion also. He’s 51-4 and he should be 54-0. He’s been matched insanely tough and the judges haven’t given him any breaks. He’s 35 years old and he’s pretty much walked through mountains of fire to entertain the fans and fight for his legacy while not getting great pay until late.
If his bank account is able to withstand it, I hope he leaves the God forbidden game. Boxing hasn’t been kind to the best pressure technician of this Century. He has aged and when a fighter of his style ages, bad things start to happen. Choc pushed so hard just to almost break even, he may have gave it ALL up in the fight. Remember how spent he looked after the late push vs SSR in their 1st fight?
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a fighter like Jaime Munguia. He’s one of the most enabled fighters of modern times. He was set to fight GGG and the fight was blocked because he was deemed not ready. He was 28-0. So he got to fight Sadam Ali for a title at 154lbs. He wins the title and looks great. He defends it a couple of times then gets a gift vs Denis Hogan. After 1 more defense he moves up to 160lbs. Because he’s undefeated and was a champion at 154lbs, he could’ve had big fights at 160 with ALL of the champions. He hasn’t taken 1 title fight. Instead he’s fought 7 non title fights at 160lbs. There isn’t one fighter of his status in the world that has been afforded that type of luxury. When I say his status. I’m saying an undefeated champion who moves up in weight and has been the #1 contender to multiple times but chooses to fight “get better” fights.
It’s disgusting that a fighter can choose not to take his mandatory fight. Then get the same opportunity again just to not take it again. If you choose not to fight your mandatory, then you should be forced to earn it again by beating the top rated fighter of the organization and also you should have to wait at least 2 years to be made the mandatory again because you're affecting other fighter's careers.
My respect for fighters is enormous and I don’t even like to criticize them with any tone of harshness. The sport is too hard and I love it too much. But I will respectfully say I have never seen such preferential treatment go towards a fighter. Munguia is basically being allowed to cherry pick a title shot as a challenger, while other fighters get ranked behind him and can’t get the mandatory or opportunities that he’s being afforded but won't take.
I just heard Demetrius Andrade say he can’t make 160lbs anymore and that was his reason for moving up to 168lbs and coming over to PBC. Do you believe that, because from where I’m standing he’s not that big and he seemed to ducked Zhanibek Alimkhanuly.
Bread’s Response: I didn’t hear Demetrius Andrade say he couldn’t make 160lbs. So it’s hard for me to comment on something I didn’t hear, because you could’ve taken it out of context. I do know that there is big money at 168lbs and the PBC has some players at 168lbs. Andrade is 34 so it makes sense that he goes to where the money is.
However, I do feel he would’ve beaten Janibek and it would've been good for him to beat such a highly regarded challenge. I think Janibek is good but fighters like him who are willing to fight anyone sort become Boogeymen without doing Boogeyman things. I think Janibek is an excellent fighter. But he’s not the life taking puncher he’s promoted to being. He’s more of a slick boxer, with confidence. Andrade has a unique style and I can see him winning a decision vs Janibek. But I’m not going to give Andrade credit for winning a fight he chose not to take.
I don’t know if he ducked Janibek because lots of things go on behind the scenes. But for a fighter like Andrade, an undefeated record and a belt is a big bargaining chip. He doesn’t have his belt anymore which is a big deal in my opinion. Very few fighters are bigger than the belts. At PBC, Plant vs Benavidez is happening in the spring. Jermall Charlo has been inactive and no one knows what weight division he’s going to fight in, 160 or 168. So the only other big name at 168lbs in the PBC that is available, is David Morrell. In my opinion David Morrell is a much tougher fight than Janibek. It’s nothing against Janibek but Morrell is bigger, longer, faster, younger, stronger and he seems to hit harder. I would fight Janibek 10x before I fight Morrell. So if Andrade fights Morrell in 2023, then he deserves major props and no one can give him the case for ducking Janibek. Let’s see what happens.
This isn’t about boxing but what do you think of Deion Sanders leaving JSU for Colorado? Did he bail out on the program or was it a power move?
Bread’s Response: All I know is he’s being paid a lot more to coach at Colorado than he was Jackson State but obviously if you coach at an HBCU it can’t all be about money. So right now, I don’t have an opinion on this. My feelings are honestly neutral but I will speak on some other things.
First off,…..The Players! The Student Athletes! Deion Sanders was great at recruiting. He was able to pull some big time players that normally would not have chosen Jackson State. I’m also going to assume that he had some big commits to the program for the upcoming season. I don’t think he recruited them telling them he may leave. So I feel like this affects these kids. I don’t know if it’s just negative. But it certainly has an affect.
Travis Hunter went to JSU specifically for Deion Sanders. He plays Deion’s exact positions. I know players can always transfer. But that can’t be easy on them. Not every single player will follow him. There may not be room at Colorado for every single one. What if Colorado is loaded at certain positions? I’m sure Hunter and Deion’s son who plays QB Shedeur will find spots. But others may not be so fortunate. Do they stay at JSU or do they follow to Colorado and possibly not start? Where do the commits go? Do they transfer or do they still go to JSU? What about the ones who went to JSU because of the weather and the community along with playing for Deion? They may not want to play in Colorado. Colorado may not win next year and Jackson State was dominant in the SWAC. There is a lot to consider for these players.
I know this happens often but I don’t know if it happens to this extent. Deion Sanders really sparked up national interest in the JSU program. Which was a great thing by the way. And now I just wonder how this affects the players, who in my opinion are the most important piece to this.
Now, people won’t like this but I have read that Deion’s office has been burglarized. I also read his children’s cars have been burglarized. I’m not saying that can’t happen in Colorado. But that doesn’t leave a good taste in one’s mouth. I don’t care who takes offense but when you can you distance yourself from stuff like that.
10 years ago, I built a great house for my family on a great block but not a great neighborhood. That house got burglarized. Once the property VALUE raised up to a point where I could sell it and make a 6 figure profit, I sold it. People said to me what about the community. I said what about ME! I never told anyone my house was burglarized but it helped my decision.
I will be very reserved with my judgment on Deion Sanders.
1. Who are the best top 5 Puerto Rican fighters (from the island OR from the states) ever in your opinion? 2. Have you seen Boots opponent Karen Chukhadzhian fight before? Should we expect this to be one of his toughest fights or should we expect a blowout as usual? 3. If Edwin Valero would have had a complete career where do you think he stands today? HOF? ATG? Or just another champion?
Thank you , Adrian Soto-Pérez from NC
Bread’s Response: Felix Trinidad, Wilfredo Gomez, Carlos Ortiz, Miguel Cotto and Wilfred Benitez. Are the top 5, dead or alive. And I’m very firm on that. That’s not an exact order because Tito, Ortiz and Gomez are basially interchangeable.
No I haven’t seen Ennis’s opponent fight….
I think big punchers are usually slightly overrated. And big punchers who have abbreviated careers are usually vastly overrated. I think Valero was a great fighter but he had his flaws if you watch his last few fights. I think he would’ve won more titles but it’s too hard to say what would have happened if he would’ve faced consistent resistance and the elite coaches started training specifically for him and his tendencies. Things change once someone sees a chink in your armor and part of coping at the top level is having mental stability…..
Now that Tank Davis has left Mayweather Promotions, how do you think the rest of his career will play out? How much influence did their matchmaking have on his career?
Bread’s Response: 99.9% of fighters need productive matchmaking. Very rarely can a fighter, fight everyone with no picks. So Mayweather Promotions did a great job with Tank. He’s 27-0 with 25kos. He’s a top 2 non heavyweight super star in boxing. It’s #1 Canelo then #2 is either Tank or Spence. I don’t know what his career earnings are but I assume it’s over 25 million total. That’s just a rough estimate. That’s a huge sum of money for a fighter who has only fought only one fight as an underdog and that was his title shot vs Jose Pedraza 5 years ago..
Tank has delivered his part because he usually wins by brutal ko and in exciting fashion. But to make that type of money and be where he is in his career, you have to say the Promotion did a terrific job with him. I think Tank Davis is a top 10 P4P fighter. I think he can possibly beat anyone at 135lbs. Tank is that good. I believe he would be the favorite or even money with anyone at 135lbs. So at this point in his career with him being 28, if he decides to fight for legacy I think he can go to the HOF.
I’m not sure what fights he will take because that’s ultimately what it comes down to. So let’s just see what him and his new team decide to do. I’m interested because I think Tank vs Ryan Garcia, Devin Haney and Shakur Stevenson are HUGE, Money and Legacy fights. But before we get to that, he has real work in front of him January 7th. Hector Garcia is no joke.
Bread,
Seeing Tank mature outside of the ring is a great thing. That being said if you were the boxing king for a day what 3 things would you mandate a fighter take classes in? Health, public speaking, money management??
Bread’s Response: This is a unique question. Very interesting. You know men go through so many stages of maturity. I was a different person at 28 than I was at 21. I was different at 46 than I was 35. I can remember doing and saying stupid things that later I was upset at myself at. So it’s no surprise to me that Tank is maturing before our eyes. Good for him.
I wouldn’t suggest fighters take 3 classes. I would suggest that take 3 COURSES to prepare them for what comes with boxing.
1. Health/Nutrition. I just know too many fighters who think they can eat right for training camps but don’t do it all year around. They act like they can trade their bodies in for new ones. By Learning Health and Nutrition they can learn the difference between explosive workouts and endurance workouts. They can learn when and what supplements to take. They can learn how important sleep and recovery is. Often times fighters hire people to do implement these this in their lives without fully understanding WHY.
2. Relationship Therapy. Fighters often have open wounds from family or romantic relationships that never get repaired. I have seen women ruin fighters careers and I have seen women save fighters careers. It can both ways and the fighter who chooses the right woman by his side, gives himself the best chance to succeed. That choice is interconnected with his success. Because if you don’t choose the right woman, she becomes a distraction when she could’ve been an asset. How many fighters who we have seen have children by more than 3 women, go broke fast. Being broke is directly influenced by their choice in women.
Fighters are also are made to feel they owe family and friends something because of their success. We all want to help our family but often times this can be a burden. Fighters need to manage this burden. I watch mothers make their sons take the responsibility of their non existent husband instead being able to be their sons. I watch mothers act like their athletically gifted child is their favorite so they can be more inclined to reap the benefits of his money. I have seen friend and family consistently come up with bad investment ideas for the fighter to invest in and the fighter feels obligated. This is a real thing!
3. My last course would be finance. I made this last because you won’t get to the big money or you won’t keep it if the other two are not intact. Great Question.
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