By Stephen 'Breadman' Edwards
The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen 'Breadman' Edwards discussing topics like fighters cutting down in weight, the fighting abilities of middleweight king Gennady Golovkin, Sugar Ray Leonard, Danny Garcia, Adrien Broner and more.
Bread,
So tired of the Kell Brooks, canelos, Charles, ect... Who cut 30lbs of water to fight smaller guys. Look at the best fighters of the last 20 years. RJJ, Floyd, Manny, Ward, GGG, ect... Those guys fought within 10lbs of their walk around weight. Look at Brandon Rios, dude wasnt 20lbs naturally bigger and started to lose and look mediocre. I always appreciate something special. The guys cutting weight aren't special they are just bigger. I think there needs to be a rehydration clause by the state commissions. 5-6% increase based off of the weight class they are fighting at. Juicers will have trouble with this. Younger guys who are able to cut massive amounts of weight will have trouble too. The quality of boxing will get better and we will see special people more often. Your thoughts
DJ kck
Bread’s Response: I will agree and disagree….
Some guys walk around 10lbs within their fight weight and some guys “say” it. It’s common for fighters to lie about their walk around weight. 90% of fighters today walk around minimum 15lbs over their fight weight. Minimum! They will lie and tell you different until you randomly whip out a scale and dare them to step on.
I also agree some guys are just bigger but not better. But I think it hurts fighters in the long run to keep cutting that massive weight. It depletes the glucose in the body so much that most fighters who do that have questionable stamina. It also decreases the chances of a long prime. Chavez Jr is the prime example of a guy who was good for a short period of time and as soon as he moved one weight class up he became mediocre because his biggest advantage was massive size.
Other fighters are just too complacent to eat correctly unless they have a fight. They just don’t diet until a fight is on the books. In my opinion that is the biggest problem.
Then you have guys like Bernard Hopkins and GGG. Hopkins and GGG are disciplined athletes who would not walk around close to the fight weight if they didn’t diet correctly. Hopkins turned pro at 177lbs over 20 years ago. No way he walked around at 165lbs unless he dieted correctly and made it his lifestyle. GGG was a 165lbs amateur 12 years ago. As you get older you put on more mass. No way he would just walk around at 165lbs eating whatever he wanted and not dieting correctly. But they both have the discipline to understand that shedding massive amounts of weight is not healthy. That’s why they are among the best and other fighters are just flash in the pans.
I bring that up because I am not sure how much of an advantage it is in the long haul. 15 round fighters had better stamina than fighters do today. I think the main reason was because they stayed closer to the fighting weight. Losing 15lbs or more when you already have low body fat, damages you physically. You can’t get that back in one day worth of rehydration. At some point your body hits a wall and boom!!!
I don’t agree with your 5% rehydration suggestion. That’s not enough in my opinion. 10% is fair and reasonable. And yes I agree lots of fighters who cut mass weight are ped users and if tighter weight restrictions were made then lots of these fighter’s careers will be done. Speaking of PEDS, for the record let’s keep track of how many fighters elect to stay away from the WBC belt now that they implement VADA testing. Everyone loved that green belt. Let’s see how much they love it now!
Hey Bread,
What makes GGG so formidable is he’s a counterpuncher AND an attacker, he navigates the four phases of fighting easily.
Brook’s corner was correct to stop the fight when they did, Brook had already suffered a broken orbital bone in the 2nd round and GGG was ramping it up in the 4th and 5th when they threw in the towel. With that injury it would’ve only ended badly for Brook as the fight wore on. He could’ve ended up like Margarito when he fought Pacquiao. Margarito’s right eye looks like a glass eye when you see him now.
Brook is primarily a counterpuncher so it was going to be a long night for him against a guy who attacks the way GGG does and Brooks defense is C+/B-. I don’t think gaining that weight the way Brook did helped him, that was psychological ploy. Brook didn’t have the 160lb strength to compete either, that program he was using was for Rugby players. Guys like Mackie Shilstone, Memo Heredia and Alex Ariza to a lesser degree know how to build a guy’s strength to compete at higher weight classes for fighting.
As far as being a Hall of Famer, I look at a guy’s resume and GGG is not there yet. With Andre Ward’s impressive resume no one is talking about Andre Ward being a Hall of Famer yet, but GGG jumps to the front of the HOF line, that’s bullsh*t! GGG at this point in his career, STILL hasn’t fought ANYBODY! Brook hasn’t done nothing as a welterweight, but yet this was a great victory for GGG? Brook will probably be unable to go back down to 147lbs and face Errol Spence. Before Floyd fought Hatton, it was said he was scared to fight him, after he beat Hatton, it was said that Floyd forced him to fight at 147lbs which was too big for him. Hatton was much more established than Brook. But they’re not saying the same thing about GGG?
Is GGG a good fighter? No, he’s a very good fighter, but not yet great. That will change if he beats the 3 guys you mentioned, Saunders, Jacobs, and Canelo, because he’ll have cleaned house at 160lbs and be undisputed.
Bread’s Response: GGG definitely fights in a vicious easy manner. He punches with you and overwhelms you. He has boxing ability but he chooses to box going forward. Very similar to Chavez Sr.
I “understand” why Brook’s corner stopped the fight. I would never suggest letting a fighter take a 12 round beating just for the sake of it. But I don’t 100% agree with stopping the fight after 4 rounds and some change. I think Brook was buzzing GGG with crisp shots in between his volleys. I think GGG was pushing a pace that he needed some rest and recovery with. And Brook was very competitive in my opinion up until the 5th round. He didn’t have a bad 4th round. I would have liked to see how Brook responded to corner’s instruction in between the 5th and 6th rounds. I also would have liked to see how GGG responded after throwing an awful lot of punches early in round 5. Margarito was getting brutally beaten for 12 rounds. Brook was reeling in JUST the 5th round of a fight I had even…..At the end of the day it is a FIGHT.
Here where we will disagree. Lot’s of times long reigns are not littered with great names. Look at Bob Foster’s lightheavyweight reign. The best fighter he defeated was an old, small Dick Tiger for the title. None of his 14 title defenses were against great fighters. But he was dominant. He was the model of consistency. And he passed the eye ball test. Therefore he’s a HOF.
GGG has not defeated any great fighters. But he’s been a champion for over 5 years. He has been extremely dominant. Maybe losing 4 or 5 rounds in his entire reign. He has unified the titles. And he has fought the best “available” guy. Remember the reason he was corresponding with UK fighters was he was trying to fight Saunders and Eubank. Both made things too difficult. I was specific in saying GGG is not an all time great. No way. But if he retires to day with 16 title defenses, all by ko, unified champion and 36-0. I think he meets the requirements. People applaud Shane Mosley’s light weight run but tell me the difference….
I love Andre Ward and I also believe he’s a HOF fighter. I think he’s in if he beats Kovalev or not. I wasn’t asked about Ward that’s why I didn’t bring him up…..
The middleweights seem eager to fight GGG off of the Brook fight. I hope so. But something tells me if he destroys one of them comprehensively and not lose 2 rounds in the process the avoidance will continue.
It’s September 16th. I know it’s the anniversary of your favorite fighters greatest victory. I just watched Leonard vs Hearns 1 in it’s entirety. I see why he was voted as the best living fighter. His hand speed and stamina are incredible. The combinations he was throwing in the 13th and 14th rounds are something I have never seen before. Today these fighters have all the advantages as far as recovery and less rounds but no one does what Sugar Ray did except maybe a prime Manny. Mythical Match ups. Leonard vs Mayweather, Pacquiao, Thurman, Brook, Canelo and GGG.
Bread’s Response: Ray Leonard was just special. I don’t know what else to say. He had a clutch gene. He was able to do great things on his biggest and most important nights. His stamina, hand speed, chin, combination punching and IQ are among the greatest in boxing history. People say Roy Jones is the most athletic fighter ever. Ray Leonard has an argument in that department. Look at the late 70’s and early 80’s version. From let’s say Daniel Aldo Gonzlaes to his destruction of Bruce Finch. All of the fights in between are on youtube you can judge for yourself.
Leonard vs Mayweather is a great fight. I would take Leonard by late stoppage in a 15 round fight. In a 12 rounder I think he beats Floyd by decision. Leonard was bigger, faster for extended combinations, his jab was just as good and he was a vicious killer. He would drown Floyd’s defense and pot shotting.
Leonard vs Pacquiao. 08-10 version of Pacquiao is a mother you know what for anyone close to his size. But the 79-82 version of Leonard would be too much. I say Manny forces Leonard to stop him. He would have it no other way.
Leonard vs Thurman and Brook. It’s not really fair to Thurman and Brook right now. They haven’t done enough. But form what I see he stops them both midway through.
Leonard vs Canelo. Leonard could make the fight easier by just getting on his bike. Or he could make it a slugfest and stay and trade with Canelo. Leonard was a nasty dude. He beats him either way although Canelo would land his share.
Leonard vs GGG is an interesting fight. Leonard is not a natural middleweight although he had some significant victories there. GGG is a monster. He would press Ray and force Ray to work for everything. But GGG can be countered and Leonard’s combination punching and handspeed is much better than Kell Brook’s. GGG also would have lull moments because the pace he would have to force to stay on Leonard would tire him out. Leonard’s stamina was a freakish. He stopped Hearns in the 14th. Stopped Benitez in the 15th. And if you look at Duran 1 he rallied like an SOB in rounds 13,14 and 15 to close the gap on the scorecards. Because of the size difference I say this is a 50/50 fight. But if you twist my arm I say Ray’s clutch gene by a hair.
Questions throughout the weight classes on protected fighters. I have never seen you criticize Danny Garcia. But he hasn’t fought a real fight since 2013. Matthysse and Khan have both proved to be overrated. Now Garcia is fighting John Molina after fighting the limited Robert Guerrero for a vacant title. A kid like Garcia is what is bad for the sport. Andre Berto is criticizing Garica but he was equally protected. He’s not screaming for a title shot vs Kell Brook or Keith Thurman. Billy Joe Saunders and Danny Jacobs are both calling out GGG. But besides fighting Eubank and Quillin neither of those clowns have ever tested themselves. False Bravado at it’s finest. Then you have one of the Charlo brothers. He fights Wilky Campfort and Austin Trout while Jrock is his mandatory. But now he’s being forced to fight he goes into hiding. Felix Verdejo is on HBO fighting regular fighters. It’s clear he is being fed and protected yet he’s getting HBO dates. Is Adrien Broner a welterweight or junior welterweight. He turns down Manny Pacquiao but he’s calling out Ricky Burns. How do you turn down Pacquiao to fight Ricky Burns? Did I miss anyone?
Bread’s Response: I guess you’re having a bad day. I’m sure you missed a few..So let’s get to it.
I don’t have an opinion on Garcia vs Molina because I’m not sure if that is true. It could be a rumor. It’s not hard to start rumors on social media. I do agree that Matthysse and Khan turned out to be overrated but they were the favorites to beat Danny when those fights happened so he does deserve some credit.
Saunders and Jacobs are good young fighters. But it is ironic that people criticize GGG’s competition but they don’t criticize Saunders and Jacobs for not fighting him. And you are correct neither guy has tested themselves like GGG has. When you criticize or compliment a fighter’s competition you have to take two important things into consideration. One is the fighter vulnerable. There are some fighters who have fought some serious killers and they mostly lose. But the reason why they get the fights is because the braintrust know they will most likely come up short. I don’t want to give names out of respect for fighters but we all know the guys that have challenged for a title 3 or more times or have been the B side in a main event 3 or more times and rarely win. Then you have fighters who can’t get big fights because fighters simply find reasons not to fight them because they are too good. Examples GGG and Guillermo Rigondeaux.
The fighters throughout history who should really be applauded for fighting killers are A side fighters who consistently seek killer challenges. Ali, Ray Leonard, Oscar De La Hoya and recently Carl Froch.
I feel bad for Felix Verdejo. That kid is under a big sh*t storm and it seems like the pressure is wearing on him. He hasn’t lost yet but it does seem that the Verdejo express is halting. It’s a testament to Top Rank’s matchmaking that he’s being slowed down. They know how to protect and slow down a fighter. They did the same thing with Kelly Pavlik. Pavlik took a little longer to develop and Top Rank gave him time. Pavlik had about 30 fights by the time he fought Jermaine Taylor.
Broner is not really a protected fighter. He’s a bulldog and he has a fighter’s mentality. I don’t know what happened behind the scenes with the Pacquiao negotiations but that was a huge opportunity for Broner. Anytime you are offered a career high payday in a winnable fight vs a legend…….
Canelo-Smith
I though Canelo like very good. I don't know about the stats, but to me Canelo's punch output was quite consistent and slightly higher compared to previous fights (didn't take rounds off).
Canelo-GGG
I think GGG will use similar strategy from Lemieux and Stevens fight, primarily using his power jabs. I don't think it will be a 'fight of the year' type, but it will still be entertaining enough. However, if the fight becomes a brawl, it's very competitive. GGG is more powerful and has very good timing, and a better jab... Canelo has enough power to KO any MW, and he's more precise, has much faster hands, has better reflexes, and head/body movement.
GGG-Jacobs
On paper, this is GGG's toughest opponent. GGG has faced best available contenders, many of which were top 10 MWs, but he has never fought top 2-3 MW (not GGG's fault). This is basically a Quillin who was a top 2-3 MW for quite a while until the loss. Nevertheless, GGG in 6.
Klitschko-Fury
How do you see the rematch at this point. Fury is not a big puncher, but you don't have to be a big puncher against Klitschko to make him panic. Thus despite what Klitschko says, I think Klitschko will still be hesitant to be (much) busier.
Ward-Kovalev winner
What should Ward-Kovalev winner do? Who should they fight? If it's an 8-4-ish fight, and not a boring fight, I say rematch is the best option. If Ward wins and there's no rematch, I think he should invite Ramirez or DeGale since RocNation will not work with Stevenson (Al Haymon). If Kovalev wins, Beterbiev would be a good and tough fight, and he can also continue pursuing Stevenson.
JRock
If Williams wins the belt, who do you want to pursue next? Please rank, in the order of preference. 1) is obviously Canelo (but very unlikely), 2).... ?
Regards from Mongolia
Amarbayasgalan
Bread’s Response: Canelo looked sensational just like I expected him to look. Great matchmaking also. Golden Boy knows his strengths and weaknesses and they matched him perfectly vs Smith.
You’re on with your assessment of GGG vs Canelo. Because of GGG’s long pole like jab he can quell the violence vs Canelo if he chose too. It sounds weird but a fire fight is Canelo’s best chance. Canelo is murder in the mid range and his combination punching is judge friendly. I have always said he’s not over his head vs GGG but I do favor GGG to win.
I also agree with your assessment in GGG vs Jacobs. Jacobs has the physical tools but I think GGG is just too much for him. I don’t know if Jacobs can stand a war with GGG. GGG has shown a great chin and in fights like this it’s the better catcher who usually wins not the better pitcher.
I don’t know what’s up with Fury. He’s been out for so long. What I will say is that I believe he’s legitimately crazy and it’s a good thing vs Wlad. Wlad is as sane as they come. He actually over thinks. If Fury is in the same shape he was last time, he should win again.
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