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#1
Old 06-17-2011, 01:58 PM
IronDanHamza
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Default 1 Billion: Kid Cocoa, the greatest "Journeyman" of all time?

I have inverted comma's above the term 'Journeyman' for good reason. In today's game, a fighter with 10+ loss's is usually considered a journeyman. Especially if they have 10+ loss's in their best years.

Kid Cocoa, retired with almost 60, yes sixty loss's. Losing to great, average and poor fighters across that long list of loss's.

Amongst those list of loss's are the names; Archie Moore, Charley Burley, Holman Williams x2, Kid Azteca x4, Battling Battalino and Lou Ambers.

Obviously, those 10 undertandable loss's jump at you amongst the close to 60 and show you the man was willing to fight anybody and everybody.

The more concerning loss's are the stacked one's to the likes of Harry Alexanian, Tony Martin, Frankie Britt, Harry Carlton and Andre Jessurun as well as many many others.

The most confusing part of it is; is amongst all the great, average and frankly poor fighters Kid Cocoa lost to, his series with HOF'er Holman Williams is possibly the most intruiging series I have ever layed my eyes on.

Accross 13 fights with Holman Williams, "Journeyman" Kid Cocoa, managed to beat him 8 times, yes, 8 times. Losing 3 times and drawing twice. Kid Cocoa, with almost 60 loss's managed to go 8-3-2 with a great fighter in Holman Williams.

Question is; How is that even possible? This is one thing that has confused me more than ever.

A fighter deals back to back loss's with Frankie Britt and manages to beat Holman Williams 8 times. Incredible.

Ontop of that his only other great win is a win over Eddie Booker. Which in it's own right is an exceptional achievement. But is obviously dwarfed by the drastic accomplishment of beating Williams 8 times. (!)

Other details about Kid Cocoa are he allegedly sparred with Kid Chocolate in his early years and sparred with Sugar Ray Robinson in his late years.

So he shared a ring with; Williams, Booker, Battalino, Ambers, Burley, Moore, Chocolate and Sugar Ray Robinson. That is one "Journeyman" I wouldn't have liked to cross paths with!

The question is; Is there another "Journeyman" as accomplished and has a resume with;

1. The quality of loss's that he has (Who he lost to)

2. Resume of actual wins (!)

Compared to Kid Cocoa?


I honestly, don't think so.


*Edit - The fighter you make your argument for to be a more accomplished 'journeyman' than Cocoa can not be in the HOF.

Last edited by IronDanHamza; 07-06-2011 at 03:23 PM.
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#2
Old 06-17-2011, 02:38 PM
RubenSonny
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Excellent thread and a fascinating fighter.

He has a draw with Burley too.

Other notable wins include:
Jack Chase
Eddie Dolan
Jimmy Leto

The last 2 also beat Burley, a lot of his other wins are over genuinely tough guys just not big names, for example, O'Neil Bell who beat Teddy Yarosz and lost an SD to Holman Williams or a Joe Carter who beat Tiger Wade, lost to Lloyd Marshall by SD twice drew with Holman Williams and Jose Basora (in his tenth fight, Basora was much more experienced).

I'm sure he found himself on the end of the wrong end a dodgy decision quite a few times too.

Last edited by RubenSonny; 06-17-2011 at 02:42 PM.
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#3
Old 06-17-2011, 02:50 PM
IronDanHamza
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Originally Posted by RubenSonny View Post
Excellent thread and a fascinating fighter.

He has a draw with Burley too.

Other notable wins include:
Jack Chase
Eddie Dolan
Jimmy Leto

The last 2 also beat Burley, a lot of his other wins are over genuinely tough guys just not big names, for example, O'Neil Bell who beat Teddy Yarosz and lost an SD to Holman Williams or a Joe Carter who beat Tiger Wade, lost to Lloyd Marshall by SD twice drew with Holman Williams and Jose Basora (in his tenth fight, Basora was much more experienced).

I'm sure he found himself on the end of the wrong end a dodgy decision quite a few times too.
I planned on including the draw with Burley but it slipped my mind as I was writing.

I chose not to include those wins which are solid wins and wanted to focus on the greats that beat him and the greats that he beat.

Do you think there is a more accomplished 'journeyman' that Cocoa? I don't.

Amazing that a guy who beat Eddie Booker and Holman Williams 8 times has almost 60 loss's. Astonishing.

I also heard a rumour once that he dropped Robinson in sparring. However, I find that highly unlikely.
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:12 PM
RubenSonny
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
I planned on including the draw with Burley but it slipped my mind as I was writing.

I chose not to include those wins which are solid wins and wanted to focus on the greats that beat him and the greats that he beat.

Do you think there is a more accomplished 'journeyman' that Cocoa? I don't.

Amazing that a guy who beat Eddie Booker and Holman Williams 8 times has almost 60 loss's. Astonishing.

I also heard a rumour once that he dropped Robinson in sparring. However, I find that highly unlikely.
His resume is fascinating, he really had Williams number, for the most part.

Well I guess anything can happen in sparring and it wouldn't mean anything but I doubt it too. Robinson did have praise for skills though and I think they were going to fight at one point but it got cancelled, don't hold me to that though.
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:27 PM
IronDanHamza
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His resume is fascinating, he really had Williams number, for the most part.

Well I guess anything can happen in sparring and it wouldn't mean anything but I doubt it too. Robinson did have praise for skills though and I think they were going to fight at one point but it got cancelled, don't hold me to that though.
Believe me, there are plenty of stories regarding Ray Robinson and Kid Cocoa.

Varying from being sparring partners, to Cocoa dropping him, to Robinson avoiding him, and EVEN to Cocoa being better than him ( )

Historians have backed up that they were sparring partners, I know that much.

The rest, however, I'm not so sure about myself either.
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:36 PM
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Believe me, there are plenty of stories regarding Ray Robinson and Kid Cocoa.

Varying from being sparring partners, to Cocoa dropping him, to Robinson avoiding him, and EVEN to Cocoa being better than him ( )

Historians have backed up that they were sparring partners, I know that much.

The rest, however, I'm not so sure about myself either.


Well Cocoa Kid/Kid Cocoa is a huge mystery himself, nobody even knows who he is, disputes about whether hes Cuban, Puerto Rican, Age etc...
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:52 PM
IronDanHamza
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Well Cocoa Kid/Kid Cocoa is a huge mystery himself, nobody even knows who he is, disputes about whether hes Cuban, Puerto Rican, Age etc...
I know and I knew this would happen But this isn't the basis of this thread so let's not go onto another tangent.


This thread is to ask "Is there a better 'journeyman' than Kid Cocoa'?

Does anyone have an opinion to counteract that?
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post

I also heard a rumour once that he dropped Robinson in sparring. However, I find that highly unlikely.
I haven't heard the dropping him in sparring story but Robinson did 'technically' duck Cocoa Kid, Ray was set to fight Gene Burton but 6 days previous to the fight date Burton suffered an injury (? Haven't read on it in a while, may be for another reason) and the Keed stepped in as a substitute, Ray increased the demand for the fight on the spot and it never happened.

Quote:
Well Cocoa Kid/Kid Cocoa is a huge mystery himself, nobody even knows who he is, disputes about whether hes Cuban, Puerto Rican, Age etc...
Springs Toledo wrote an essay called ''Watch Mah Smoke'': Cocoa Kid a mystery no more, have been meaning to get around to reading it but never have. Toledo is a decent author / historian though, sure it will cover quite a lot, you can find it online, just use google .

Going to read it now actually before I forget again.

Last edited by NChristo; 06-17-2011 at 04:01 PM.
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#9
Old 06-17-2011, 04:22 PM
IronDanHamza
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I haven't heard the dropping him in sparring story but Robinson did 'technically' duck Cocoa Kid, Ray was set to fight Gene Burton but 6 days previous to the fight date Burton suffered an injury (? Haven't read on it in a while, may be for another reason) and the Keed stepped in as a substitute, Ray increased the demand for the fight on the spot and it never happened..
I have read about that before.

I can't understand why Robinson would duck him though.

Do you have an opinion on a 'journeyman' that is more accomplished than Kid Cocoa?
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Old 06-17-2011, 04:39 PM
RubenSonny
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The most similar record would be Fritzie Zivic, though he shouldn't really be classed as journeyman since he was champion and he beat better fighters.
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