Jimmy McLarnin vs Hall Of Famers

[PEBBLES!]

I'm interested to read your opinions on McLarnin's record vs HOF's. He has victories over 13 HOF's if you include his DQ win over Bud Taylor and his KO over Ruby Goldstein (HOF Referee). He defeated every Hall of Famer he faced with the exception of a SD loss to Lou Brouillard.

Jimmy McLarnin

vs Tony Canzoneri
1 Win - 1 Loss

vs Barney Ross
1 Win - 2 Losses

vs Lou Ambers
1 Win

vs Benny Leonard
1 Win [TKO]

vs Billy Petrolle
2 Wins - 1 Loss

vs Bud Taylor
1 Win [DQ] - 2 Losses

vs Pancho Villa
1 Win

vs Fidel LaBarba
2 Wins - 1 Draw

vs Young Corbett III
1 Win [TKO]

vs Sammy Mandell
2 Wins - 1 Loss

vs Kid Kaplan
1 Win [KO]

vs Jackie Fields
1 Win [KO]

vs Lou Brouillard
1 loss [SD]

Ruby Goldstein
1 Win [KO]


Overall Record vs Hall of Famers;

Won 17 [KO 5] + lost 8 [KO 0] + Draw 1

Won 18 [KO 6] + lost 8 [KO 0] + Draw 1*


*Record With Ruby Goldstein Win

From the Hall of Famers Jimmy McLarnin defeated, list whether you believe the opponent was either green, prime, post-prime or over-the-hill. And, if possible, if McLarnin was either green, prime, post-prime or over-the-hill, as well.


He defeated Canzoneri, Ross & Taylor in their respective 2nd bouts. He also defeated Petrolle in their 2nd and 3rd fight.


Also, which of his opponents were fighting out of their optimum weightclass. I'll do more research on that later.

[PEBBLES!]

Feel free to correct any errors I may have made.

[BennyST]

I'm interested to read your opinions on McLarnin's record vs HOF's. He has victories over 12 HOF's if you include his DQ win over Bud Taylor. He defeated every Hall of Famer he faced.

Jimmy McLarnin

vs Tony Canzoneri
1 Win - 1 Loss

vs Barney Ross
1 Win - 2 Losses

vs Lou Ambers
1 Win

vs Benny Leonard
1 Win [TKO]

vs Billy Petrolle
2 Wins - 1 Loss

vs Bud Taylor
1 Win [DQ] - 2 Losses

vs Pancho Villa
1 Win

vs Fidel LaBarba
2 Wins - 1 Draw

vs Young Corbett III
1 Win [TKO]

vs Sammy Mandell
2 Wins - 1 Loss

vs Kid Kaplan
1 Win [KO]

vs Jackie Fields
1 Win [KO]


Overall Record vs Hall of Famers;

Won 17 [KO 5] + lost 7 [KO 0] + Draw 1

From the Hall of Famers Jimmy McLarnin defeated, list whether you believe the opponent was either green, prime, post-prime or over-the-hill. And, if possible, if McLarnin was either green, prime, post-prime or over-the-hill, as well.


He defeated Canzoneri, Ross & Taylor in their respective 2nd bouts. He also defeated Petrolle in their 2nd and 3rd fight.


Also, which of his opponents were fighting out of their optimum weightclass. I'll do more research on that later.

Canzoneri was at the end of his career and Mclarnin had a a pretty solid weight advantage. McLarnin was also at the tail end of his career but in better shape than Canzoneri I think and was really still fighting at peak up until the end of his career. All his best wins came in the last years of his career. He (TC) had just beaten McLarnin, then lost his LW title to Ambers, then lost the rematch to McLarnin. Never really won a another big fight.

Ross was a great win and I think his best. Brilliant. Ross was still at his best as was McLarnin but I think Ross showed he was the better of the two by winning two of three.

Ambers was a great win. He was at his best, the current LW champ and only 22, and in this non title bout he was giving away about ten pounds and showed by taking a beating.

Benny Leonard was done/shot.

Petrolle was a weird fighter. I don't not what else to say about him. So inconsistent. Great win either way.

Taylor...meh. JM lost both fights pretty convincingly. I think Taylor just had his number as the only one he did win was the DQ.

Villa was too small.

Anyway, they were all great wins. Some much better than others obviously, but it takes a great fighter to even beat crap versions of Benny Leonard etc. Pancho Villa, although tiny, still beat a lot of great fighters.

[Kid McCoy]

Villa was too small.

I noticed you said this in the other thread too. Villa was about 6lbs lighter than McLarnin, who was only 17 at the time against a vastly more experienced opponent. Not many 17 year olds with a win like that to their name.

You can go through anyone's career picking apart who was green, who was prime, who was faded, who was shot and so forth. No fighter catches all of his opponents on their best night. The only one that I can see who was really done as a first rate fighter was Leonard.

I can't think of many fighters who had such a high proportion of their fights against Hall of Famers, and that's before you get to other quality fighters he beat like Al Singer, Joe Glick, Sammy Fuller etc.

[BennyST]

I noticed you said this in the other thread too. Villa was about 6lbs lighter than McLarnin, who was only 17 at the time against a vastly more experienced opponent. Not many 17 year olds with a win like that to their name.

You can go through anyone's career picking apart who was green, who was prime, who was faded, who was shot and so forth. No fighter catches all of his opponents on their best night. The only one that I can see who was really done as a first rate fighter was Leonard.

I can't think of many fighters who had such a high proportion of their fights against Hall of Famers, and that's before you get to other quality fighters he beat like Al Singer, Joe Glick, Sammy Fuller etc.

Hey, don't get me wrong. Like I said, they are all great wins, but I'm going over them and the possibilities of each. I'm not picking it apart, because as you said, you can easily do it to anyone.

He did ask to list whether you believe the opponent was *whatever* and so I did. I believe that Pancho Villa was well and truly too small for McLarnin.

He was only 5'1" and a truly natural Flyweight or less. He weighed in under 110 pounds for the majority of his career and from what I recall he came in six pounds under McLarnin at 115 and that was the heaviest he had ever weighed in his 100+ fight career. McLarnin came in at a very light 121 for him and had weighed more before that and would be a LW not long after this bout and then at 140 and 147 shortly thereafter. At 5'6" and a natural, and solid at that, 147 pounder I think he was truly too big for Villa.

Maybe you see it differently. That's cool. I'm not downplaying it as some bad win or something. I'm looking at things and analysing them as I do with everyone. To me, beating Villa (a true Flyweight and a small one at that) who weighed the most he ever had against a much bigger guy who still outweighed him by 6 pounds even after he had come down to meet him and was a natural WW and spent most of his career there and was great at such a young age (at the time Villa was 25, experienced and a champion but McLarnin had also already HOFer Bud taylor and many other highly experienced fighters) but he was still as small as Ivan Calderon going in against someone as big as .... Ricky Hatton for example and there was no major skill difference and one guy wasn't shot or anything. They were both great, young fighters and so the size can be a major deciding factor.

We're not talking about Pac here, who at 5'7" is as tall as the guys he's been facing at 140 and 147 apart from Marg and who was like Paul Williams at the lower weights. He's as big as Calderon at five foot. He's a midget.

Two greats, one greater than the other even though younger and less experienced, and size can certainly play a factor. If you don't think it has anything to do with it that's cool. I think it's very much worth at least looking at as a factor though.

[Bundana]

Feel free to correct any errors I may have made.

McLarnin actually met 14 HOFers - more than any other boxer! The 2 you missed are Ruby Goldstein and Lou Brouillard. He defeated 13 of them (never beat Brouillard)... which is also a record (tied with Greb, though!).

[PEBBLES!]

McLarnin actually met 14 HOFers - more than any other boxer! The 2 you missed are Ruby Goldstein and Lou Brouillard. He defeated 13 of them (never beat Brouillard)... which is also a record (tied with Greb, though!).

Thank you for the correction.

I noticed Ruby Goldstein when I was reading through his record, but he is a Hall of Famer as a referee. I was apprehensive to add him, because of that.

I'll add Lou Brouillard to his record.

[Kid McCoy]

Hey, don't get me wrong. Like I said, they are all great wins, but I'm going over them and the possibilities of each. I'm not picking it apart, because as you said, you can easily do it to anyone.

He did ask to list whether you believe the opponent was *whatever* and so I did. I believe that Pancho Villa was well and truly too small for McLarnin.

He was only 5'1" and a truly natural Flyweight or less. He weighed in under 110 pounds for the majority of his career and from what I recall he came in six pounds under McLarnin at 115 and that was the heaviest he had ever weighed in his 100+ fight career. McLarnin came in at a very light 121 for him and had weighed more before that and would be a LW not long after this bout and then at 140 and 147 shortly thereafter. At 5'6" and a natural, and solid at that, 147 pounder I think he was truly too big for Villa.

Maybe you see it differently. That's cool. I'm not downplaying it as some bad win or something. I'm looking at things and analysing them as I do with everyone. To me, beating Villa (a true Flyweight and a small one at that) who weighed the most he ever had against a much bigger guy who still outweighed him by 6 pounds even after he had come down to meet him and was a natural WW and spent most of his career there and was great at such a young age (at the time Villa was 25, experienced and a champion but McLarnin had also already HOFer Bud taylor and many other highly experienced fighters) but he was still as small as Ivan Calderon going in against someone as big as .... Ricky Hatton for example.

Two greats, one greater than the other even though younger and less experienced, and size can certainly play a factor. If you don't think it has anything to do with it that's cool. I think it's very much worth at least looking at as a factor though.

But at age 17? McLarnin was not a welterweight then. That he later filled out into one was irrelevant at that point in his career. Around that time he also fought LaBarba, another flyweight, and Taylor who was a bantamweight (Taylor also fought Canzoneri at bantamweight). These fellas started fighting as teenagers and moved through the divisions as they got older. It's misleading to say they were Ricky Hatton picking on Ivan Calderon.

McLarnin fought them because they were within his weight range, not because he was cutting weight so he could face off with little guys. If the 25 year old peak welterweight McClarnin was fighting flyweights then I'd agree with you but that's not the case. It'd be like saying Duran doesn't deserve credit for wins over lightweights because he later fought at middleweight. Not many 17 year old 120lbers handle someone like Villa and for me it's an excellent win.

[BennyST]

But at age 17? McLarnin was not a welterweight then. That he later filled out into one was irrelevant at that point in his career. Around that time he also fought LaBarba, another flyweight, and Taylor who was a bantamweight (Taylor also fought Canzoneri at bantamweight). These fellas started fighting as teenagers and moved through the divisions as they got older. It's misleading to say they were Ricky Hatton picking on Ivan Calderon.

McLarnin fought them because they were within his weight range, not because he was cutting weight so he could face off with little guys. If the 25 year old peak welterweight McClarnin was fighting flyweights then I'd agree with you but that's not the case. It'd be like saying Duran doesn't deserve credit for wins over lightweights because he later fought at middleweight. Not many 17 year old 120lbers handle someone like Villa and for me it's an excellent win.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit at all. I think it's a great win for a 17 year old guy. I'm listing the reasons I think he won. The Duran analogy is terrible. The difference with a Duran fight at LW is that he was never any bigger than his opponents. He was a LW and a very, very average sized one at that. McLarnin wasn't a Flyweight and Villa was never a superbantamweight which is the division they fought in. It's more like Duran (Villa) fighting guys at MW (McLarnin). He's a small guy who put on weight but is still fighting guys way bigger. They started much higher, ended much higher and were naturally much bigger. If Villa was about 5'5" or 5'6" then it wouldn't have made a difference, but he was only five feet tall.

It kind of equals out being 17 against an experienced champ but Villa was still only five feet tall.

Anyway, they were both greats and the reason I think he won is because one guy was that much smaller. It's the reason I think he won, not an excuse to say he doesn't deserve credit. Guys win fights in different ways. Size, skill, power, speed, strength whatever. They are just reasons why someone wins a fight.

In this particular fight, I think McLArnin, having a big size advantage overall against a guy only five feet tall is a pretty big reason.

Obviously you think differently. It's cool.

[Kid McCoy]

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit at all. I think it's a great win for a 17 year old guy. I'm listing the reasons I think he won. The Duran analogy is terrible. The difference with a Duran fight at LW is that he was never any bigger than his opponents. He was a LW and a very, very average sized one at that. McLarnin wasn't a Flyweight and Villa was never a superbantamweight which is the division they fought in. It's more like Duran (Villa) fighting guys at MW (McLarnin). He's a small guy who put on weight but is still fighting guys way bigger. They started much higher, ended much higher and were naturally much bigger. If Villa was about 5'5" or 5'6" then it wouldn't have made a difference, but he was only five feet tall.

It kind of equals out being 17 against an experienced champ but Villa was still only five feet tall.

Anyway, they were both greats and the reason I think he won is because one guy was that much smaller. It's the reason I think he won, not an excuse to say he doesn't deserve credit. Guys win fights in different ways. Size, skill, power, speed, strength whatever. They are just reasons why someone wins a fight.

In this particular fight, I think McLArnin, having a big size advantage overall against a guy only five feet tall is a pretty big reason.

Obviously you think differently. It's cool.

Duran fought featherweights and bantamweights early in his career. Why? Because they were guys within his weight range while he was a young fighter still growing. McLarnin wasn't a flyweight but at one time he was small enough for fights with men that size to be viable. Tony Canzoneri's best days were at 135/140 and he also fought a lot of featherweights and bantamweights as a neophyte. You could go back and say Marcel and Kobayashi were naturally smaller men than Duran. That he later filled out into a bigger man is irrelevant because the size difference was negligible when they met.

Do you believe any 17 year old with a 6lb weight advantage would beat Villa? If you do then I think you're wrong. If you don't then that means something other than size contributed to McLarnin winning. I think you're overestimating the height advantage too. Jimmy Wilde was a 5'2" flyweight and was able to beat bantamweights and featherweights. To me it shows McLarnin's class as a fighter that as a scrawny teenager he beat a vastly more experienced Hall of Fame great, 6lb weight advantage or not (if it was something like a 20lb advantage you'd have a case). Taking into account McLarnin's youth and Villa's experience, I think it was a great win which was down to a lot more than just a 6lb weight advantage.

Here's a report of the fight. Sounds like Villa's recent visit to a dentist was more important than the weight difference:

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi...19250815.2.112