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I've wanted to see this for a while, and as someone recently posted a link in the video section I finally had the chance.
I should say that I don't usually score fights. I think it can sometimes take away from the fun of watching, and because scoring is subjective, sitting there with a pen and notebook isn't going to result in seeing some kind of special truth that would otherwise be missed, so I normally don't bother. I usually score about 10 fights per year.
I decided to score this one because I wanted to try and evaluate just how good John is, and because, as I scored JMM-Pac for JMM, I was interested in knowing if, were it up to me, JMM would've gone undefeated these past 8 years.
Anyway, my scorecard:
1: JMM 10-9
2: JMM 10-9
3: John 10-9
4: John 10-9
5: JMM 10-9
6: JMM 10-9
7: JMM 10-9
8: JMM 10-9
9: JMM 10-9
10: John 10-8
11: John 10-8
12: JMM 10-9
I read a few reports online, and my scorecard seems to be similar to most people's. One difference is that I gave JMM round 12 (I get the impression that most saw it for John) and I consider round 7 to be very very close. I actually watched it 3 times before deciding to give it to Marquez.
In some rounds, John was able to slip or block Marquez's punches as he came in, fire back with his own, and then move away before JMM could land anything in return. In other rounds, Marquez was able to avoid John's jab, go to the body and then follow up with a straight right or left hook. As my scorecard shows, I saw more of the latter type of rounds than the former.
A lot of the rounds were close, and I can see why some thought John deserved it, but my main problem is with the ref deducting points. The punches didn't even look low, and John seemed to be doing his best to milk them and complain to the ref. To me, his trunks looked slightly high. Not outrageously so, but enough to make it worth mentioning when you consider that Marquez had 2 points deducted for punches that landed on the belt line. One point would've been a bit harsh, but 2 was simply unfair.
I doubt compubox figures were ever done for this fight, but I suspect that a large % of punches missed or were blocked. Sometimes over a minute went by without any clean shots landing.
What made this fight hard to score was that both were clearly very talented and well-schooled, and had no real weaknesses for the other one to exploit. Both guys had fast hands, and were good defensively not just in terms of blocking punches, but also when it came to head movement. I re-watched several of the exchanges, because I simply couldn't say for certain who had gotten the better of them on first viewing.
I think that fans of technical skill would enjoy this fight. There wasn't a single clinch the entire 12 rounds. John seemed to prefer keeping things on the outside, with Marquez coming forward and throwing combinations at mid-close range.
Marquez had fast hands and is a good counter-puncher, and perhaps it simply isn't possible to keep on the end of the jab for a whole fight, but Forrest worked his jab well in the first fight against Mosley, who had very fast hands and good counter punching skill, and based upon what I'd read of the fight previously, I expected something a bit similar to that. Instead, the fight that this most resembled was probably Barrera-Morales II; one guy looking to engage, the other wanting to stay out of range, and then catch his opponent on the way in. Like Morales in that fight, it seemed to me that JMM constantly wanted to up the tempo and trade punches at close quarters, but his opponent was able to stop those attempts for large periods of the fight.
Perhaps some might disagree with those comparisons, but my point is that Chris John didn't have the kind of great, effective jab that I was expecting. JMM didn't have great problems with John's jab, IMO his difficulties came from the fact that John was able to block a lot of his punches (sometimes landing a quick counter) and move out of the range before any more were thrown.
Anyone else have their scorecard at hand, or any thoughts on the fight?
I should say that I don't usually score fights. I think it can sometimes take away from the fun of watching, and because scoring is subjective, sitting there with a pen and notebook isn't going to result in seeing some kind of special truth that would otherwise be missed, so I normally don't bother. I usually score about 10 fights per year.
I decided to score this one because I wanted to try and evaluate just how good John is, and because, as I scored JMM-Pac for JMM, I was interested in knowing if, were it up to me, JMM would've gone undefeated these past 8 years.
Anyway, my scorecard:
1: JMM 10-9
2: JMM 10-9
3: John 10-9
4: John 10-9
5: JMM 10-9
6: JMM 10-9
7: JMM 10-9
8: JMM 10-9
9: JMM 10-9
10: John 10-8
11: John 10-8
12: JMM 10-9
I read a few reports online, and my scorecard seems to be similar to most people's. One difference is that I gave JMM round 12 (I get the impression that most saw it for John) and I consider round 7 to be very very close. I actually watched it 3 times before deciding to give it to Marquez.
In some rounds, John was able to slip or block Marquez's punches as he came in, fire back with his own, and then move away before JMM could land anything in return. In other rounds, Marquez was able to avoid John's jab, go to the body and then follow up with a straight right or left hook. As my scorecard shows, I saw more of the latter type of rounds than the former.
A lot of the rounds were close, and I can see why some thought John deserved it, but my main problem is with the ref deducting points. The punches didn't even look low, and John seemed to be doing his best to milk them and complain to the ref. To me, his trunks looked slightly high. Not outrageously so, but enough to make it worth mentioning when you consider that Marquez had 2 points deducted for punches that landed on the belt line. One point would've been a bit harsh, but 2 was simply unfair.
I doubt compubox figures were ever done for this fight, but I suspect that a large % of punches missed or were blocked. Sometimes over a minute went by without any clean shots landing.
What made this fight hard to score was that both were clearly very talented and well-schooled, and had no real weaknesses for the other one to exploit. Both guys had fast hands, and were good defensively not just in terms of blocking punches, but also when it came to head movement. I re-watched several of the exchanges, because I simply couldn't say for certain who had gotten the better of them on first viewing.
I think that fans of technical skill would enjoy this fight. There wasn't a single clinch the entire 12 rounds. John seemed to prefer keeping things on the outside, with Marquez coming forward and throwing combinations at mid-close range.
Marquez had fast hands and is a good counter-puncher, and perhaps it simply isn't possible to keep on the end of the jab for a whole fight, but Forrest worked his jab well in the first fight against Mosley, who had very fast hands and good counter punching skill, and based upon what I'd read of the fight previously, I expected something a bit similar to that. Instead, the fight that this most resembled was probably Barrera-Morales II; one guy looking to engage, the other wanting to stay out of range, and then catch his opponent on the way in. Like Morales in that fight, it seemed to me that JMM constantly wanted to up the tempo and trade punches at close quarters, but his opponent was able to stop those attempts for large periods of the fight.
Perhaps some might disagree with those comparisons, but my point is that Chris John didn't have the kind of great, effective jab that I was expecting. JMM didn't have great problems with John's jab, IMO his difficulties came from the fact that John was able to block a lot of his punches (sometimes landing a quick counter) and move out of the range before any more were thrown.
Anyone else have their scorecard at hand, or any thoughts on the fight?
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