What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

[CarlosG815]

So... because his most historically-significant fights took place post-exile, that necessarily means that he was a better fighter post-exile. Brilliant logic.

I'm doubting that you've ever even watched Ali's performances against Williams, Terrell, Folley, Chuvalo, or London. If you had, you'd know that 60s Ali is superior to 70s Ali in just about every category. Pretty much every credible boxing historian writes that Ali's peak was basically between Liston and Folley. But I'm sure you know better.

The implied premises inside the logic is that the quality of fighters face was much greater. The very same logic that you apply to Mike Tyson, you do not apply to Muhammad Ali. While my argument is logically sound, yours is a contradiction, and that's why I do know better than you.

His performance versus Frazier in the first fight was far more brilliant than any performance you mentioned pre exile, and THAT would be something that anybody credible in boxing history would agree on. But I'm sure you know better.

[SBleeder]

The implied premises inside the logic is that the quality of fighters face was much greater. The very same logic that you apply to Mike Tyson, you do not apply to Muhammad Ali. While my argument is logically sound, yours is a contradiction, and that's why I do know better than you.

His performance versus Frazier in the first fight was far more brilliant than any performance you mentioned pre exile, and THAT would be something that anybody credible in boxing history would agree on. But I'm sure you know better.

Ali fought tough competition both pre-exile and post-exile. The difference is that his skills and reflexes were far superior in the 1960s.

Liston was a better fighter than Frazier was; Clay/Ali made him look foolish. Frazier, by contrast, pushed Ali around the ring in the middle and late rounds and deserved the decision he won. Yes, it was a great performance by Ali as well, but it wasn't even close to his performances against Liston, Williams, or Folley. He was slower and far easier to hit in 1971 than he was at any point pre-exile.

Tell me: What physical quality of Ali was better in 1971 than it was in 1967? I want to know what attributes of his improved over his three years of exile.

As for "anybody credible in boxing history", if we're going to continue to appeal to authority: many historians, including many on this very website, consider the Cleveland Williams fight to be his pinnacle performance.

(And I don't know what Tyson has to do with this... he didn't fight any quality fighters!)

[them_apples]

well after watching Ali Woop Chuvalo in the first fight I see him being too fast for frazier and too hard to catch clean. Frazier lands his body shots but eats way to many head shots.

Ali fought chuvalo a second time and didnt look half as good, and chuvalo wasnt even in the same sorta shape.

[La_Vibora]

Ali-Cooper in 1963:

[Scott9945]

I'm going to meet halfway in this debate. Ali was clearly a superior talent in 1967. A quickie with Quarry and a subpar performance against Bonavena didn't have him back to his best yet for Frazier.

But on the other hand, aside from Liston, Ali's pre layoff competition was weak, and not really any better than Tyson's in the 1980's.

[Capaedia]

No chance in hell. Ali's chin was every bit as stout in the 60s as it was in his later career.

Unlikely sure, but no chance? Frazier nearly cracked his chin for good in the 11th of the FOTC.

Liston was a better fighter than Frazier was; Clay/Ali made him look foolish.

At that stage? I think Liston looked his best against Wayne Bethea (short fight but that's the sharpest he ever looked in my opinion) a full 6 years prior to the first Clay fight.

Also Liston is a better match-up for Ali than Frazier was.

[CarlosG815]

Unlikely sure, but no chance? Frazier nearly cracked his chin for good in the 11th of the FOTC.



At that stage? I think Liston looked his best against Wayne Bethea (short fight but that's the sharpest he ever looked in my opinion) a full 6 years prior to the first Clay fight.

Also Liston is a better match-up for Ali than Frazier was.

You're talking to a wall. This guy is never going to get it - he is bias to the core and does not think about anything that he speaks about.

[SBleeder]

You're talking to a wall. This guy is never going to get it - he is bias to the core and does not think about anything that he speaks about.

You still have yet to name one tangible quality that 70s Ali trumps 60s Ali in.

[jabsRstiff]

I don't see the never-been-exiled Ali getting backed to the ropes quite as much as he did in the Fight of the Century. Sure, Frazier would put him there a good amount and get his work done.....but there'd be a lot more time spent in center ring where Ali would have the edge.

A very brisk and entertaining fight that Ali would win by a 10-5, 9-6 advantage in rounds.

[Cardinal Buck]

Similar result as the first fight.