Is Wladamir Klitschko A ATG Heavyweight?

[JAB5239]

Shavers isnt much better, if at all better than them.

Shavers beat better fighters than both of them but was terribly inconsistent with stamina problems. He fit right in with todays contenders.

[StarshipTrooper]

Shavers isnt much better, if at all better than them.

Except that Shavers could put your decapitated head in the nose-bleed section.....something neither of those Eurofrauds are capable of.

Poet

[kendom]

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3

Poet, I don't know whether to laugh or cry........

LOOOOOOOOOOL theyre calling him the greatest heavyweight of all time.........HAHAHAHAHA thats the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard

[Mugwump]

No. Not after watching last night's fiasco. Haye was dreadful. How he expected to win on the road against a fighter who would certainly land four or five scoring jabs per round without throwing anything in return I have no idea.

But let's not pretend that Wlad was anything special. He wasn't. I gave him ten clear rounds over Haye. But here is the madness: All Haye needed to do to completely reverse the decision - ten rounds in favour of him - was connect with eight scoring shots every three minutes. Eight solid jabs would have done the trick. Some have said that would mean exposing himself to needless danger - but he had no other way to win. And it's not like eight scoring shots amounts to kamikaze boxing. Some fighters would consider that the bare minimum requirement!

Wlad looked like he couldn't hit a barn door with a handful of rice. Even in the latter rounds. I mean, how many decent power punches did he catch Haye with? I know the kid is quick on his feet but he is certainly no Ali.

The irony was that even though Wlad won by a virtual shutout if you were to judge the fight purely on facial damage Haye would be in with a shout of victory. And he caught Wlad with maybe three solid shots in thirty six minutes!

I give Wlad his due for being a solid and fundamentally decent champion with an awkward but functional style. But that's it. The fact that he has reigned for so long speaks volumes about the standard of opposition in the heavyweight division.

I remember when Lennox was getting flak for dominating a so-called "weak" division. Perhaps I'm looking back at the past with rose-tinted spectacles but for the life of me I don't remember it being THAT bad.

Let's say Lennox fought and beat the David Haye of last night. Where would he rank in his top ten list of toughest opponents? The only answer I have is - nowhere.

[StarshipTrooper]

No. Not after watching last night's fiasco. Haye was dreadful. How he expected to win on the road against a fighter who would certainly land four or five scoring jabs per round without throwing anything in return I have no idea.

But let's not pretend that Wlad was anything special. He wasn't. I gave him ten clear rounds over Haye. But here is the madness: All Haye needed to do to completely reverse the decision - ten rounds in favour of him - was connect with eight scoring shots every three minutes. Eight solid jabs would have done the trick. Some have said that would mean exposing himself to needless danger - but he had no other way to win. And it's not like eight scoring shots amounts to kamikaze boxing. Some fighters would consider that the bare minimum requirement!

Wlad looked like he couldn't hit a barn door with a handful of rice. Even in the latter rounds. I mean, how many decent power punches did he catch Haye with? I know the kid is quick on his feet but he is certainly no Ali.

The irony was that even though Wlad won by a virtual shutout if you were to judge the fight purely on facial damage Haye would be in with a shout of victory. And he caught Wlad with maybe three solid shots in thirty six minutes!

I give Wlad his due for being a solid and fundamentally decent champion with an awkward but functional style. But that's it. The fact that he has reigned for so long speaks volumes about the standard of opposition in the heavyweight division.

I remember when Lennox was getting flak for dominating a so-called "weak" division. Perhaps I'm looking back at the past with rose-tinted spectacles but for the life of me I don't remember it being THAT bad.

Let's say Lennox fought and beat the David Haye of last night. Where would he rank in his top ten list of toughest opponents? The only answer I have is - nowhere.

Lennox's opposition may not have been great shakes compared a number of other Heavyweight ATGs but it was certainly clearly better than Wlad's......not even close.

Poet

[bojangles1987]

he will probably be top ten by the end of his career.

granted, his era is one of the worst ever. it makes me cringe sometimes when I see his opponents. but, he has consistantly beaten a high number of them, and has around 11 wins over top opposition by now, which is actually more than a number of ATG heavyweights.(although, again, its a bad era).

add that in with his dominance and yeah, I dont think its a stretch to make him top ten. well, once his career is done.

Holmes' era wasnt actually that terrible. they were inconsistant sometimes, but they could still show up to be quality fighters. Holmes had a number of wins over good fighters, like Norton, Shaversx2, Cooney, Snipes, Weaver, Witherspoon, and schooled Mercer in his 40s. Reality is Holmes beat more top opposition than Wladimir has(so far) and proved his quality when he was past prime and old, although Holmes career isnt without reproach either.

I can't foresee anyone coming along that would give Wlad anything like a top 10 argument. Again, ruling an era gives you ATG status but that competition means Wlad is low on that rung. The competition he has to beat is truly awful. The fact Haye was considered a big fight just because he has both athleticism and power says something.

[$Bullsfam$]

Top 10? Come on now, everybody above him RIGHT NOW has at least 2-3 quality wins and Wlad don't have *****. His best wins are like C level.

[New England]

Shavers isnt much better, if at all better than them.

wladimir would run the risk of getting his jaw broken into little pieces
but vitali would chew shavers up and spit him out
and he could probably take his punches. not all night or anything, but at least in the sense of weathering the storm
he's downright scary when he's in top form and starts to put those heavy hands on you.



ask shannon the cannon
and that was a past it vitali with broken down old man hands!
or danny williams (i think he dropped danny six or seven times if i remember correctly. he didn't even look like he was trying to hit him hard)


in his prime he was a TNT right handed puncher to boot



and for the record
i'm going to be the first to scoff at the man who puts either klitschko in a HW top ten

it's one of the richest divisions in the history of the sport
some of the greatest athletes ever have been HW champion
dont insult the division or the ten greatest men who fought there

stop kidding yourself

[The Surgeon]

irrelevant to me. A fighter can get better or worse at any point in their career. Its very clear that Wladimir has gotten harder to hit and more controlled since both the Sander and Brewster fights, although Im not goign to say his chin is any better.

And I dont expect Vitali and wlad to trade. Vitali's range is completely different than Wlads, and his power usually comes from leaning down into his punches, since he has a shorter reach. Wlads punches arethe kind that sort of 'push' you back, and Vitali would run into Wlad's harder and quicker straight shots while he was trying to throw, diffusing the power. Vitali to me doesnt hit nearly as hard as his KO% indicates, he more of accumulation puncher that keeps tapping you until you fold. Wladimir would get his punches off first and quicker, and that always slows someones offense unless they can counter or are fine landing simulataneous shots...neither of which vitali really does, since when he sees a punch coming all he does is lean back. This is also a rare scenario where Wlads left hook might come into play, since a left hook works particularly well when someone decides that leaning back is their main defense. and that left hook is heavy.

also Wladimir has dealt with a number of large men...Thompson, Austin, and McCline in particular. Off the top of my head, the only guy Vitali faced that was as naturally large as Wladimir was an overweight old Lewis, and that was a loss.(albeit a close one)

His chin still sucks and his workrate is dreadfull and i do not think he has an engine worth a damn, its one thing jabbing at a controlled pace with f all troubling u back and its another thing all together when ur in a "Fight". He has improved late in his career tho i agree, but that is because he has become so over cautious, if he was matched with a fighter of decent caliber that made him work i think we'd see all those old problems resurface.

I dont think they'd trade either, wlad wouldnt trade with me let alone a 6'8 HW Champ! I was just pointing out that the chin difference makes up for the power difference because u are right Wlad is by far the better puncher, Vitali just pushes his shots out with no snap. And again i agree Wlad has a DYNAMITE left hook and he'd be wise to use that **** alot more often but against Vitali i think he'd be intimidated, on the back foot getting tagged with jabs in return to his own before he started getting tired and clipped with rights and when that starts the end is nigh imo.

Those big men are all very average tho and less than that in some cases, the best being Thompson who hasnt really done anything. Old Fat Lewis rates higher than them all, Vitali lost but looked right in it. I just strongly feel the bigger stronger, more durable, fitter and stronger brother wins. Vit may have said Wlad would win but then Wlad said Vitali would too so it means little. I get the sense tho they know big bro is the tough guy, Vitali they say is a born fighter, Wlad an athlete who learned to box.

[Mugwump]

The key to beating Wlad is the jab. If you have a good scoring jab (it needn't be punishing - although that helps - but it MUST be noticeable to the scorers) and you keep pumping into Wlad's face he will be FORCED to abandon his evasive tactics and come forward. He has to in order to recover the points he is losing.

This is what I can't understand about Haye. He didn't NEED to throw bombs or trade. He had the speed to step in, double up the jab and then step back out again. He does that five or six times per round and he would have reversed each of the ten he lost (according to my scoring).

What's more, Wlad would then have to come looking for Haye and once in range he would have been a far easier target than the one Haye was swinging madly at and looking like a fool.

I think of guys like Ali, Liston and Larry Holmes - fighters who not only had a jab but a hurtful, damaging one - and I shudder to think what suffering they would inflict on Wlad.

Unfortunately, the jab - like the body punch and old-school head movement - seem to have gone almost out of fashion in favour of power, power and more power. So much so that I confidently predict that any talented kid around today in possession of all three (and a good chin) will go on to achieve greatness. Which is sad when you think that fifty years ago any fighter NOT in possession of these tools wouldn't get so much as a sniff.