Vitali VS Sonny Liston

[AlexKid]

Advantages of being big....

Better ability to push the other guy around they are likely to bounce off you

Usually more strength for in the clinch

Often longer reach

Often taller which takes away the opponents reach (to your head)

You can tire them out in the clinch by leaning on them this is especially true if you are taller than they are

It adds more power to your punches most of the time, so long as it doesn't slow you down too much

Heavier guys can usually take a powerful punch better than smaller weight guys

Intimidation / psyches out opponent

there are more



Liston was KOed by Ali his chin wasnt that great. Vitali has more power than Ali.

Vitali can take a heavy punch really well (Lennox Lewis, Sanders, Liston etc)


Vitalis hight will give him the range advantage over Liston, even though Liston has longer reach, since liston will loose range as he has to punch upwards at an angle to get to the head, Vitali on the other hand can punch perfectly straight. This means Vitalis usual tactics/expertise will be highly useful in this fight.

[Humean]

This is a classic example of "usable versus "unusable" strength and why a heavyweight fighter need not weigh more than just north of 210 at which point it is debatable extra weight us a help or a hinderance.

The key here is reach. Reach is the essence of "usable" strength. The size difference is almost irrelevent here because Sonny uses reach. Klitschko does not fight inside so he has virtually no advantage over Liston. He may sneak a punch in but we know Liston had a chin and we know that Vitali has limited weapons beyond an outside attack....one in which he depends on superior reach via size to deliver his attack.

Liston would flatten Vitali, probably fairly quickly. Liston could fight at all ranges, had at least as good a jab, similar reach, and was much more aggressive. We can say they both had good chins for the sake of argument. Vitali's strength advantage is severly curtailed under the following circumstances. If you cannot deliver strength via weight it is useless.

It is not debatable that weighing north of 210 is advantageous, it clearly is. You think all these cruiserweights would be fighting in that weight class if they could fight really successfully at heavyweight? At least this is the case in a heavyweight division with the Klitschko's at the top, perhaps in the post Klitschko era slightly smaller heavyweights will rule the roost.


The difference in weight between Liston and Vitali Klitschko is about equivalent to Provodnikov fighting Golovkin. The power of Vitali Klitschko would be something that Liston had never seen as well as Vitali's strength and force of weight in the clinches. Also Vitali has certainly not always had the reach advantage in fights, a number of his opponents have had about the same or longer reaches than him. Indeed Lennox Lewis is recorded as having the same reach as Liston.

[joseph5620]

Advantages of being big....

Better ability to push the other guy around they are likely to bounce off you

Usually more strength for in the clinch

Often longer reach

Often taller which takes away the opponents reach (to your head)

You can tire them out in the clinch by leaning on them this is especially true if you are taller than they are

It adds more power to your punches most of the time, so long as it doesn't slow you down too much

Heavier guys can usually take a powerful punch better than smaller weight guys

Intimidation / psyches out opponent

there are more



Liston was KOed by Ali his chin wasnt that great. Vitali has more power than Ali.

Vitali can take a heavy punch really well (Lennox Lewis, Sanders, Liston etc)


Vitalis hight will give him the range advantage over Liston, even though Liston has longer reach, since Liston will loose range as he has to punch upwards at an angle to get to the head, Vitali on the other hand can punch perfectly straight. This means Vitalis usual tactics/expertise will be highly useful in this fight.

Liston had a longer reach so that shoots down your theory. Bigger doesn't always mean you punch harder when it comes to heavyweights. Who punched harder, Joe Frazier or Buster Mathis?


Vitali never took any punches from Liston so I don't understand why you would list him as an opponent. Also, you comparing Corrie Sanders to Liston is laugable. Corrie Sanders never beat, let alone KO, a single top 10 contender outside of Wlad. If you think Liston had a bad chin because of the Ali fight, that speaks for itself.

Taller fighters get hit by shorter fighters all the time. Liston would have no problems hitting Vitali. Your reasoning is not only inaccurate but ridiculous.


As I stated, Vitali lost to a past prime Lewis and Chris Byrd. The two best fighters he ever faced. He has nothing on his resume to suggest he beats Liston. Absolutely nothing.

[joseph5620]

It is not debatable that weighing north of 210 is advantageous, it clearly is. You think all these cruiserweights would be fighting in that weight class if they could fight really successfully at heavyweight? At least this is the case in a heavyweight division with the Klitschko's at the top, perhaps in the post Klitschko era slightly smaller heavyweights will rule the roost.


The difference in weight between Liston and Vitali Klitschko is about equivalent to Provodnikov fighting Golovkin. The power of Vitali Klitschko would be something that Liston had never seen as well as Vitali's strength and force of weight in the clinches. Also Vitali has certainly not always had the reach advantage in fights, a number of his opponents have had about the same or longer reaches than him. Indeed Lennox Lewis is recorded as having the same reach as Liston.

No it isn't. Liston was a heavyweight and would fight in the same division. Your comparison is like comparing apples to oranges.

Liston was not even close to being a cruiserweight.

[Humean]

No it isn't. Liston was a heavyweight and would fight in the same division. Your comparison is like comparing apples to oranges.

Liston was not even close to being a cruiserweight.

A cruiserweight of today who weighs in at 199 pounds could hydrate to be within Liston's fight weight should he go that route.

Typical Liston: 210-220 pounds
Typical Vitali Klitschko: 245-250 pounds

The difference in weight between Klitschko and Liston then is that Vitali Klitschko would be between about 11%-19% of Sonny Liston's own weight heavier than Liston.

Provodnikov: 150 pounds
Golovkin: 170 pounds

The difference in weight between Golovkin and Provodnikov then is that Golovkin would be about 13.33% of Provodnikov's own weight heavier than Provodnikov.

Therefore the likely weight difference between Klitschko and Liston would be almost exactly the difference between Golovkin and Provodnikov, or even bigger.

I don't know why people accept the importance of weight in the other divisions but pretend that it is of little importance with the heavyweights, does something magical happen once the fighters are over 200 pounds? I know the weight advantage can be subdued with skill but is the difference in skill level between Liston and Vitali Klitschko that great?

[Humean]

As I stated, Vitali lost to a past prime Lewis and Chris Byrd. The two best fighters he ever faced. He has nothing on his resume to suggest he beats Liston. Absolutely nothing.

Sure he lost both these fights but he was was winning both fights on the scorecards at the time of the stoppage. He was not outclassed by either, he might have been (I suspect he would) against a slightly younger Lewis in better shape but Lewis like Vitali Klitschko are significantly bigger than Sonny Liston ever was.

[joseph5620]

A cruiserweight of today who weighs in at 199 pounds could hydrate to be within Liston's fight weight should he go that route.

Typical Liston: 210-220 pounds
Typical Vitali Klitschko: 245-250 pounds

The difference in weight between Klitschko and Liston then is that Vitali Klitschko would be between about 11%-19% of Sonny Liston's own weight heavier than Liston.

Provodnikov: 150 pounds
Golovkin: 170 pounds

The difference in weight between Golovkin and Provodnikov then is that Golovkin would be about 13.33% of Provodnikov's own weight heavier than Provodnikov.

Therefore the likely weight difference between Klitschko and Liston would be almost exactly the difference between Golovkin and Provodnikov, or even bigger.

I don't know why people accept the importance of weight in the other divisions but pretend that it is of little importance with the heavyweights, does something magical happen once the fighters are over 200 pounds? I know the weight advantage can be subdued with skill but is the difference in skill level between Liston and Vitali Klitschko that great?

Liston could have probably rehydrated to 230. You talk as if he walked around at his fighting weight which is highly unlikely. You trying to make a case for him being a cruiserweight is absolutely ridiculous.

You can't compare fighters in two completely different weight classes to fighters fighting in the same division. If you don't understand that there is nothing else to discuss.

[joseph5620]

Sure he lost both these fights but he was was winning both fights on the scorecards at the time of the stoppage. He was not outclassed by either, he might have been (I suspect he would) against a slightly younger Lewis in better shape but Lewis like Vitali Klitschko are significantly bigger than Sonny Liston ever was.

So what if he was winning. Neither fight went to the scorecards to determine a winner. So the scorecards are irrelevant.

He lost both fights to the best fighters he ever faced and that's the bottom line.

[Scott9945]

Advantages of being big....

Better ability to push the other guy around they are likely to bounce off you

Usually more strength for in the clinch

Often longer reach

Often taller which takes away the opponents reach (to your head)

You can tire them out in the clinch by leaning on them this is especially true if you are taller than they are

It adds more power to your punches most of the time, so long as it doesn't slow you down too much

Heavier guys can usually take a powerful punch better than smaller weight guys

Intimidation / psyches out opponent

there are more



Liston was KOed by Ali his chin wasnt that great. Vitali has more power than Ali.

Vitali can take a heavy punch really well (Lennox Lewis, Sanders, Liston etc)


Vitalis hight will give him the range advantage over Liston, even though Liston has longer reach, since liston will loose range as he has to punch upwards at an angle to get to the head, Vitali on the other hand can punch perfectly straight. This means Vitalis usual tactics/expertise will be highly useful in this fight.

1) Sonny Liston wasn't going to be intimidated by anyone in a boxing ring. Ever.

2) If you think that analogy about Sonny's chin has any validity at all, you need to spend more time researching the fighters and not just looking for shortcuts on boxrec.

3) You used Liston as someone who Vitali had taken a punch from. Maybe you want to try Sam Peter instead, or at least someone VK had actually fought.

[Humean]

Liston could have probably rehydrated to 230. You talk as if he walked around at his fighting weight which is highly unlikely. You trying to make a case for him being a cruiserweight is absolutely ridiculous.

You can't compare fighters in two completely different weight classes to fighters fighting in the same division. If you don't understand that there is nothing else to discuss.

I wasn't actually making a case that Liston was a cruiserweight although a number of today's cruiserweights might weigh on fight night about Liston's weight. Liston weighed in on the day, the comparison should be between Liston between 210-220 fight night and not heavier.

You can compare the differences in weight and I did so, you are just ignoring it.