Post Benitez/Leonard/Hearns/Duran Welterweight Top 20

[junior gong]

There is a great thread on this forum focusing on the best welterweights since the era of the Fab 4, or the Triumphant 3, considering that the Marvelous One never fought at welterweight. Anyway, this got me thinking of the 20 best names in the division since, how would I rate them? Where do they stand? How many of them can be considered great (strictly looking at their welterweight standings)? What criteria would I use?

So the first thing I did was divide their opponents faced into four categories: A, B, C and D. An "A" opponent is a terrific win, taking into account the opponent's position at the time of the fight, who was the favourite and the manner of victory.

I then looked at the overall skill level of the fighter, how good he was the weight, taking into account the physical basics: skill, power, punch resistance and stamina. Outside of the physical attributes and possibly more important is the skill level, ring IQ, ability to adapt to different styles and style. Losses were also taken into account, the manner of those losses and any controversial wins.

Using the above criteria, I have come up with the following top 10 (remainder of the top 20 will follow):

1. Oscar De La Hoya
Wins
A: Whitaker and Quartey
B: Carr
C: Chavez Sr, Rivera, Gatti and Camacho
D: Kamau, Charpentier and Coley

Losses
A very controversial first loss to Felix Trinidad, which really should be a win, with Oscar winning between 7-9 rounds on most cards outside of the judges involved. Second loss to Shane Mosley (SD), a very good fighter in his own right and the leading lightweight at the time. Shrouded in PED controversy. Neither loss takes away too much from Oscar's terrific run at 147lb.

2. Felix Trinidad
Wins
A: -
B: DLH, Carr and Camacho
C: Whitaker, Garcia and Pineda
D: The remainder of his IBF defences

Losses
Trinidad was unbeaten in his time as welterweight titlist, largely due to his power, size, exceptional ability to cut fighters off and favourable judges. Regarded as one of the most dangerous punchers ever at welterweight.

3. Shane Mosley
Wins
A: DLH and Margarito
B: -
C: Collazo and Rivera
D: Diaz, Taylor, Cano, Wise and co.

Losses
Losses have come against the best guys in the division, including the likes of Forrest and Cotto, his two most recent defeats have come as an almost shot fighter against Mayweather and Pacquiao. The Cotto fight was exceptionally close.

4. Manny Pacquiao
Wins
A: Cotto
B: DLH and Clottey
C: Rios and Marquez
D: Mosley

Losses
The only true loss for Pacquiao at welterweight has come at the hands of long time rival Marquez, who stopped the Filipino in 6, exhilarating rounds. One of the best welterweight contests in recent years. The other loss should actually be in the "A" win column, with Bradley squeaking by in one of the most disgraceful judging decisions in recent memory.

5. Floyd Mayweather
Wins
A: -
B: Hatton
C: Judah, Marquez, Guerrero and Baldomir
D: Mosley, Mitchell and Ortiz

Losses
There are none, which speaks volumes and tells us one of 2 things, either Mayweather is exceptionally skilled or he hasn't fought all the best names available. In fact, both conclusions are legitimate. Mayweather is indeed exceptional skilled but has has missed out on welterweight bouts with Margarito, Williams, Cotto and Pacquiao.

6. Lloyd Honeyghan
Wins
A: Curry
B: Blocker and Bumphus
C: Hatcher, Kil-Chung, Mittee and Vaca
D: String of fights for Commonwealth, British and European titles

Losses
Losses to Marlon Starling and Jorce Vaca stand out but Honeyghan was suffering by this stage and no longer at his best for various reasons. To his credit, he only lost to the best in his division at the time.

7. Donald Curry
Wins
A: -
B: McCrory and Starling 2x
C: Diaz, Rocca and Stafford
D: Number of opponents

Losses
Of course, there is the surprising loss to Lloyd Honeyghan and the subsequent decline. It is important to note that this was his only loss at the weight.

8. Vernon Forrest
Wins
A: Mosley 2x
B: -
C: Frank and Phillips
D: Stone, Griffin amongst others

Losses
A brutal stoppage at the hands of Ricardo Mayorga derailed what could have been a great career at welterweight, sending Forrest 7lb north.

9. Antonio Margarito
Wins
A: Cotto
B: Cintron and Clottey
C: Diaz, Santos and Kyvelos
D: Notable wins in this category are Martinez, Kamau and Randall

Losses
The biggest of defeats came against Shane Mosley, a terrific fighter with one last great performance left in him. Paul Williams is another conqueror, both fighters beating Margarito with speed and precision.

10. Miguel Cotto
Wins
A: Mosley
B: Quintana, Judah and Clottey
C: Urkal and Jennings
D: Gomez

Losses
Margarito did a number on the Puerto Rican and I don't believe Cotto fully recovered from it. Having said that, there is the now infamous hand wrap scandal and it lessens the impact of the loss. Pacquiao finished off what was left of Cotto's impressive prime but there is no shame in losing to one of the best ever.

Feel to discuss, post your own lists with some sort of criteria. Let's discuss one of the best divisions in the sports history as civilised boxing fans.

I like this list, you've put a lot of thought into it and its pretty damn good imo, but no Marlon Starling? I would have put his body of work on a par with the likes of Marg or Cotto.

[JDD1]

Of course, Margarito at the time was coming off of beating Cotto....no, annihilating him and making him take a knee. Margarito was the baddest man in the division at the time. Mosley battered him. That is an "A" win.

Oscar beat Whitaker who at the time was undefeated at the weight, WBC champ and regarded as the best welterweight on the planet. Oscar beat him and although some say it was controversial, Oscar beat the best welterweight on the planet and caused Sweet Peas work rate to drop. Yes Whitaker made it difficult and the fight looked clumsy but some of those rights and lefts that Whitaker tasted in the early rounds made him decide he'd rather make it ugly than try to win. A win.

Mayweather beat an almost shot to hell version of Mosley, if I had a Z ranking I'd place that win there.

Clottey was one of the top 5 leading welterweights at the time who had given Cotto hell and a legitimate contender for Pacquiao. Not only did the Pacman win, he won a complete shutout, the gulf between the two was vast. The Oscar win is a "B" because the general consensus amongst fans, journalists and fighters was that Oscar would destroy Pacquiao, too big, too strong etc. Pacquiao knocked Oscar into retirement.

Baldomir is quite possibly the worst welterweight champion ever, who caught Judah going through one of his "phases". Mayweather won and yes he won the so called lineal title but he did not look impressive at all, other great welterweights of the past would have battered Baldomir into oblivion.

The Judah win is not an A because he had lost to Baldomir and because Mayweather struggled against him for 5 rounds, looking mediocre at best in those rounds. Yes he stepped it up but the performance was not exactly a classic, jaw dropping crowning of a great champion.

Hatton was moving up in weight and again, Mayweather was given hell for 10 rounds, especially the first 5 or 6, before the referee and Mayweather's conditioning kicked in.

You made some valid points. But you rate the wins very subjectively and without consistency. You knew ODH was shot when he fought manny but elevate the win given what people thought. Then you ignore what people thought about shane when he fought floyd and base his being shot on him losing the fight.

Most fans were saying floyd was afraid of SHane and that shane would beat him. SHane didn't fight between beating Margs and losing to floyd. He was widely considered the #1 ww in the world. How does one go from great to shot with out fighting?

Most casual fans thought Manny would ose to ODH. You are using what people thought. That doesn't change what ODH really was-an old fighte who returned to 147 after years of being at 154 and 160. You penalize the Hatton win because he was moving up yet don't mitigate the ODH win for manny when nhe was moving down.

Baldomir,we agree, may be the worst lineal ww champion ever. But he was still lineal ww champion. That is above where clottey was ranked. He beat zab just like clottey did. Its almost as if you are rating clottey's zab win ahead of Baldo's.

[JDD1]

Why is everything about Floyd and Manny.

Did you just make this account to only argue about floyd and manny? Pac > Floyd's resume and it wont change before they retire.

I personally think that its a well thought out list myself.

I asked just some questions. I never criticized the poster or the list.

[daggum]

floyd fans getting mad that floyd's great triangle wins are being sh-it on. love it! floyd beat the guy who beat the dangerous guy what a win! even hatton shouldn't be a B win. he had 1 fight against collazo and looked terrible. a guy like marlon starling should be A level and probably in the top 3. he beat honeyghan, brown, and breland while losing a razor close fight to curry. guys like honeyghan, curry, and starling should all be well above floyd.

[UTEP]

Shane was considered the best ww after beating Marg. ODH returned to 147 after notr being ther for years and far more "shot" than Shane. There is no way the Shane win is less than the ODH win.

SHane and floyd, was the first meeting of #1 and #2 ranked ww's in a long time, even though ring had Manny at #1 everyone else had Shane there.

The Floyd/Mosley fight would have been good if it happened right after the Margarito win but it didn't, it happened after Mosley was coming off a 16 month hiatus from the sport, and Mosley was still 39 years old when Floyd fought him no matter how you try to twist it.

And Mosley was not ranked #1 when he fought Floyd, fighters lose their rankings after a year of inactivity.

[MisterHardtop]

You made some valid points. But you rate the wins very subjectively and without consistency. You knew ODH was shot when he fought manny but elevate the win given what people thought. Then you ignore what people thought about shane when he fought floyd and base his being shot on him losing the fight.

Most fans were saying floyd was afraid of SHane and that shane would beat him. SHane didn't fight between beating Margs and losing to floyd. He was widely considered the #1 ww in the world. How does one go from great to shot with out fighting?

Most casual fans thought Manny would ose to ODH. You are using what people thought. That doesn't change what ODH really was-an old fighte who returned to 147 after years of being at 154 and 160. You penalize the Hatton win because he was moving up yet don't mitigate the ODH win for manny when nhe was moving down.

Baldomir,we agree, may be the worst lineal ww champion ever. But he was still lineal ww champion. That is above where clottey was ranked. He beat zab just like clottey did. Its almost as if you are rating clottey's zab win ahead of Baldo's.

All choices are ultimately subjective but mine are based in reality. No one in their right mind who understand this sport thought Mosley would be Mayweather, at 39 and inactive for almost a year and a half and had had 2 training camps, even a prime fighter would be burnt out after such a rigorous routine. It was general knowledge within the boxing community that Mosley was on his way out of the sport.

Wih regards to Oscar, no one and I mean no one in boxing thought he was shot before Pacquiao. These are just thoughts. Maybe you weren't around when these fights happened live or are too young but it's what the world saw at the time. It wasn't just casual fans who thought Pacquiao would lose, almost every boxing reporter I spoke to thought the same, some prominent names included.

As you can probably tell, I have rarely used official ranking as a basis for my list, why? Because they are all corrupted, with GBP owning The Ring etc and bias from various boxing organisations. I'm going by what learned people in boxing thought at the time. No one believed Baldomir was the number one welterweight on the planet, yes he had the official title but nothing more.

[MisterHardtop]

floyd fans getting mad that floyd's great triangle wins are being sh-it on. love it! floyd beat the guy who beat the dangerous guy what a win! even hatton shouldn't be a B win. he had 1 fight against collazo and looked terrible. a guy like marlon starling should be A level and probably in the top 3. he beat honeyghan, brown, and breland while losing a razor close fight to curry. guys like honeyghan, curry, and starling should all be well above floyd.

Marlon will feature in my top 20, just missed out on the top 10.

Should he be above Mayweather? I don't think so, he was a some way below Mayweather in terms of skills and we mustn't forget that Floyd still has some good wins at the weight.

Hatton had a terrific outing against Mayweather in my opinion, Ricky did us proud.

[BennyST]

Mosleys trainer: "a block fell out" which part is exaggerated? Either a block fell out or it didn't. He either loaded his gloves or he didn't.

Inspector: It looked like a cast plaster

So now you are calling a devout religious man a liar

Besides, he said it in the build up to Mosley mayweather fight. Why would he lie

So give an unexaggerated version of "a block fell out"

It has been exaggerated. It was basically thickened gauze, if that makes sense. Normal gauze that looked slightly hardened and thickened. In all likelihood, it made absolutely not the slightest bit of difference to any part of any punch whatsoever in that fight. Considering he was busting Cotto up and hurting him as early as round 2, before the padding would have crushed.....It's highly unlikely it had any effect.

I guess you never know.

It was overblown out of all proportion though.

[JDD1]

All choices are ultimately subjective but mine are based in reality. No one in their right mind who understand this sport thought Mosley would be Mayweather, at 39 and inactive for almost a year and a half and had had 2 training camps, even a prime fighter would be burnt out after such a rigorous routine. It was general knowledge within the boxing community that Mosley was on his way out of the sport.

Wih regards to Oscar, no one and I mean no one in boxing thought he was shot before Pacquiao. These are just thoughts. Maybe you weren't around when these fights happened live or are too young but it's what the world saw at the time. It wasn't just casual fans who thought Pacquiao would lose, almost every boxing reporter I spoke to thought the same, some prominent names included.

As you can probably tell, I have rarely used official ranking as a basis for my list, why? Because they are all corrupted, with GBP owning The Ring etc and bias from various boxing organisations. I'm going by what learned people in boxing thought at the time. No one believed Baldomir was the number one welterweight on the planet, yes he had the official title but nothing more.

I am not as old as you, but I have been watching since 79/80. The points you made about Mosley are fair-I just think the same applies to ODH.

Some definitely thought ODH would beat Manny. I would think that thought disappeared somewhere between ODH running on 24/7 and the weigh in, especially amongst knowledgable fans.

I agree today's rankings are corrupt. But ODH didn't own the ring when most of the fights you referenced were discussed. No, Baldo wasn't #1, but , no offense, he was still ranked higher than clottey was when he fought manny, which you listed as one of your criteria.

I think you made some excellent points, really. For an older fan like me its nice you listed ww's from the 80's/90's.

I look forward to future debate/discussion.

[BennyST]

Surely if you're going by the definitions set at the top TS, and with the standard set for the others, Judah should be a B for Floyd or a C for Cotto.

You've got him as a B win for Cotto, but only C for Floyd. Floyd fought a Judah coming off one loss. Cotto fought him when he hadn't won a fight in over two years in three fights and hadn't even fought a full round in over a year. Both struggled early, Cotto shaken up a few times and struggled to adjust against a worse version of Judah. He also hurt Cotto and had him looking very shaky through the early rounds, just like he does most people. Cotto looked more vulnerable early than Floyd against a Judah that was in the longest winless streak of his entire career.

Floyd also had trouble against Judah's early speed, but really took over pretty quickly and while he didn't stop Judah, it was a pretty brutal beating and dominant performance against a Judah that was only one fight removed from being the lineal, Undisputed welterweight champion. Just stopping Judah late, doesn't equal a better win for Cotto.